On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[Rosewood]

I have had similar issues. If you read my post "Can You Believe This" I had a nice guy I wanted to meet. I asked him to slow down. He kept. with all romance. I found out his Mom was dying. He had a girlfriend dye four years ago. The sister wanted me to come to KY and meet. I am sorry I told her he just quit talking to me. I ended it. Told her goodbye. I don't know if he meant what he said about love and all. Maybe I am a fantasy to escape reality. He said his mother would be better. He needs help so I moved on. I don't need anger or hurt to hold on to. This has nothing to do with me personally. I had a great guy die to. He would want me to move on. i am glad for the time we shared.

I am talking to a guy in Adirondacks,. A chef who invested in a log cabin home to keep the property that he inherited from adopted parents. They were older and have died. He has a party where he used to incite then every summer. He still has the party every in Memorial. I like that. It is spiritual and cool. He wants me to come. There would be lots of people. That;s not awkward.
If we are attracted to each other good and if not we can just be friends he says. That's a healthy stipulation.
I am not sure I want to spend money to fly right now. He says No he wants to buy tickets for me to fly to NY and hop on Amtrak so I can enjoy the ride up the coast. I have to see this he says. I understand that I was married to Locomotive Engineer and have been many places by train. This is a generous and thoughtful offer.
He calls often. He seems to have friends where he works and neighbors he helps out. I have friends and family on my mountain ( no lake or boat). I told him if we are friends in August great.
I just can't resist mountain kind of person. Adirondacks are so beautiful. We are going slow. No cray talk of marriage and I love you. We seem to have enough commonality and differences to be good friends. He is a quiet person with a good life. A visit there could be good for me. I love that expectations are real.
Yes Triple Bogey is right. There are good guys. My mother used to say there is Jack for every Jill. The one I might pick may make you go YUCK. By the way I am really enjoying your photos. Problem up here is haze. To the west is beach and the other side is desert. There is also smog. The best views are seldom clear. I also don't have a professional camera.I do take some pictures as keepsakes. I am a writer at heart.

 

[Ymir]

I say it again: you most possibly CAN and SHOULD want relationships or specific people without being needy or desperate.

But how do you do that though? It seems that if you've decided you want a relationship, or a specific person, then you are no longer indifferent, you no longer have the dismissive, cocky, "cool guy" attitude which is the only way to get anywhere with girls. Without the indifference, you care about the outcome, and for that, women treat you like a pansy.

But if you just leave it up to fate, you may not like whoever it decides to give you. The odds are very small that fate will just deliver you the one you want most. In fact, there is a significant chance that fate will not send anyone your way at all. It's like ardour said - it seems that according to the rules of attraction, you can only have what you don't want, and if you actually want to get what you want, then you have to play mind games because if you don't actively try to influence the outcome, you'll just get stuck with what you don't want.

It seems that if you want a relationship or a specific person, then you are no longer apathetic towards being alone and no longer leaving your fate in the hands of random chance - doesn't that make you needy by definition?

It's a really annoying paradox - in order to get a relationship, you have to be apathetic. You can't be needy if you want a relationship. But if you want a specific girl, you are needy. BUT if you don't want to be needy, then you can't want a specific girl. Then you'll just get stuck with whoever, and won't be happy or you'll just learn to fake being happy with someone you don't really want. How can you have a specific romantic goal without coming across as needy?

You know what would help you a lot? Stop thinking in extremes for a while!!!!!!!!!! The world is not a huge dichotomy between tough guys and nice guys, or girls you want that are flawless and boring, plain girls (I've read your posts m8) or being needy and not showing interest at all. The world is not black and white. Roll with it.

You can show interest in someone. You can take action and call first, text first, ask out on a date. But there's a limit. While it depends on the person you are interested in, there are pretty universal guidelines that you should probably know. A few of them (that I've observed):

Texting first: by all means do it. It won't hurt. But if she doesn't reply, don't text her again. Or maybe text her again to check if she got it, maybe, but if you still get the silence treatment, forget it. She ain't interested in talking. Pay attention to the frequency you text her first too. If you are ALWAYS texting her first, and very frequently, you might come off as needy. Give her space from time to time and if she texts you first, lucky you. Make a point of replying but pay attention to not keep the conversations very long at first. Or just ask her if it's okay to talk for longer, if you are getting in the way, etc.

Same goes for calling first. If the conversation flows nicely and if she asks questions, answers yours with long, complete sentences, it's probably okay to call her again. Or if you want to play cool, wait for her to call you. If she's say she's "busy" too often and you never get a hold of her, hit the road. She ain't interested. If you are in doubt of what her limits are, ASK!

Asking out on dates: if "something" always shows up for her, she's always "busy" or doesn't say anything at all if by text, don't ask her out again. And if a romantic relationship is all you want of her (which is fine, sometimes you can't be friends with people you are romantically interested in), then stop calling and texting too if she's never ever up to a meeting.

Ya know, you get the drill. There's a balance here. Most people who ignore and go silent, are just trying to avoid saying no. Most girls are nice and won't let you down very clearly so you have to beware. Unless you are interested in the female version of the charming and socially skilled Mr. Darcy. In this case, very good luck.

And of course, if she says she doesn't want you texting and calling her, and flat out refuses your invitations to go out, then you should probably do what she says if you don't want to be a stalker.

 

[ardour]

I say it again: you most possibly CAN and SHOULD want relationships or specific people without being needy or desperate.

But how do you do that though? It seems that if you've decided you want a relationship, or a specific person, then you are no longer indifferent, you no longer have the dismissive, cocky, "cool guy" attitude which is the only way to get anywhere with girls. Without the indifference, you care about the outcome, and for that, women treat you like a pansy.

But if you just leave it up to fate, you may not like whoever it decides to give you. The odds are very small that fate will just deliver you the one you want most. In fact, there is a significant chance that fate will not send anyone your way at all. It's like ardour said - it seems that according to the rules of attraction, you can only have what you don't want, and if you actually want to get what you want, then you have to play mind games because if you don't actively try to influence the outcome, you'll just get stuck with what you don't want.

It seems that if you want a relationship or a specific person, then you are no longer apathetic towards being alone and no longer leaving your fate in the hands of random chance - doesn't that make you needy by definition?

It's a really annoying paradox - in order to get a relationship, you have to be apathetic. You can't be needy if you want a relationship. But if you want a specific girl, you are needy. BUT if you don't want to be needy, then you can't want a specific girl. Then you'll just get stuck with whoever, and won't be happy or you'll just learn to fake being happy with someone you don't really want. How can you have a specific romantic goal without coming across as needy?

As you say it's a maddening paradox.

The relationships that seem to work, that last, are those where the woman appears to be more enthusiastic about the whole thing than the man. If he were as invested as her she wouldn't have respected him, it wouldn't have gotten far and you wouldn't see them together now. It looks as if these women like ******** when in reality the guys they like aren't necessarily bad people, just kind of indifferent and therefore don't treat their partners with the respect and adoration we would expect to see. Quite sad but this is the way it appears to be.

You can show interest in someone. You can take action and call first, text first, ask out on a date. But there's a limit. While it depends on the person you are interested in, there are pretty universal guidelines that you should probably know. A few of them (that I've observed):

Texting first: by all means do it. It won't hurt. But if she doesn't reply, don't text her again. Or maybe text her again to check if she got it, maybe, but if you still get the silence treatment, forget it. She ain't interested in talking. Pay attention to the frequency you text her first too. If you are ALWAYS texting her first, and very frequently, you might come off as needy. Give her space from time to time and if she texts you first, lucky you. Make a point of replying but pay attention to not keep the conversations very long at first. Or just ask her if it's okay to talk for longer, if you are getting in the way, etc.

Same goes for calling first. If the conversation flows nicely and if she asks questions, answers yours with long, complete sentences, it's probably okay to call her again. Or if you want to play cool, wait for her to call you. If she's say she's "busy" too often and you never get a hold of her, hit the road. She ain't interested. If you are in doubt of what her limits are, ASK!

Asking out on dates: if "something" always shows up for her, she's always "busy" or doesn't say anything at all if by text, don't ask her out again. And if a romantic relationship is all you want of her (which is fine, sometimes you can't be friends with people you are romantically interested in), then stop calling and texting too if she's never ever up to a meeting.

Ya know, you get the drill. There's a balance here. Most people who ignore and go silent, are just trying to avoid saying no. Most girls are nice and won't let you down very clearly so you have to beware. Unless you are interested in the female version of the charming and socially skilled Mr. Darcy. In this case, very good luck.

And of course, if she says she doesn't want you texting and calling her, and flat out refuses your invitations to go out, then you should probably do what she says if you don't want to be a stalker.

Don't call too much... don't bother them all the time...take the hint... this is just common sense.

It doesn't address the problem of having to fake apathy if it's someone you've fallen hard for.

 

[TheSkaFish]

As you say it's a maddening paradox.

The relationships that seem to work, that last, are those where the woman appears to be more enthusiastic about the whole thing than the man. If he were as invested as her she wouldn't have respected him, it wouldn't have gotten far as you wouldn't see them together now. It looks as if these women like ******** when in reality the guys they like aren't necessarily bad people, just kind of indifferent and therefore don't treat their partners with the respect and adoration we would expect to see. Quite sad but this is the way it appears to be.

Yea. This is something I've seen in a couple places now. A relationship occurs when the woman is more invested than the man. Hence, the indifference. It could range from true indifference just simply caring less than the woman.

The problem is, how do you get anyone to like you at all if you are not supposed to invest? How can you possibly invest less than a person who doesn't know you, who has no investment in you by default? If you are truly apathetic, you wouldn't care to talk to any girls at all. So it comes back to faking apathy. You have to somehow do something to get attention (but without seeming like you are begging for it!), hope the right girl picks up on it, then fake indifference towards her, going against your instinct to be interested in her. But not too much, because then she'll go away. It's a hot-and-cold game. No wonder it's so hard when you want to aim yourself at a specific woman.

Obviously it's not impossible but still....it is a twisted game, nevertheless. I don't want to just resign myself to dating girls I don't care about but man.....the whole thing really is anything but common sense.

 

[Ymir]

It's not "faking apathy". It's giving people space!!!!!! Because they need it!!!!! You don't have to talk to someone 24/7 and call and text all the time to care about them!!!!!!!!! And if think so there is your problem!!!!!

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

 

[ardour]

You have to somehow do something to get attention (but without seeming like you are begging for it!), hope the right girl picks up on it, then fake indifference towards her, going against your instinct to be interested in her. But not too much, because then she'll go away. It's a hot-and-cold game. No wonder it's so hard when you want to aim yourself at a specific woman.

Obviously it's not impossible but still....it is a twisted game, nevertheless. I don't want to just resign myself to dating girls I don't care about but man.....the whole thing really is anything but common sense.

Unfortunately yes, hot-and-cold-mind games. It's what you read in just about all dating advice aimed at men ; trick them into thinking they have feelings for you while never showing your hand. It seems like openness and honesty is the ultimate turn off in this twisted culture. I don't have anything positive to say except that not all women are like this (but those that aren't are usually taken)

 

[Alonewith2cats]

It's to bad you had to deal with that type of idiot, but to be honest I think people like that are the most plentiful. Admittedly I have to laugh, because I spent a long time on a few different dating sites (including those two) and averaged less than one date per year out of them combined. It's easy for that type of guy to tell women what they want to hear on those sites and it seems a lot of women are willing to listen to it. From my experiences all those sites are primarily used as hook up services.

If it wasn't for the occasional success story such as the woman I know who met her husband on OK Cupid and is happily married I would have deleted my account from OK Cupid Hook Up Services a long time ago.

 

[TheSkaFish]

It's not "faking apathy". It's giving people space!!!!!! Because they need it!!!!! You don't have to talk to someone 24/7 and call and text all the time to care about them!!!!!!!!! And if think so there is your problem!!!!!

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

It's not the "giving people space" thing that I don't get. I understand that. It's more like, the acting "too cool for school" that you are supposed to do. That isn't natural for me. Sarcasm, making fun of someone, stuff like that. I just don't do it in my daily life.

I'm sorry that I've come off as frustrating but in terms of dating, think of me as pretty much a Martian. I don't speak the language, and all the customs that are well known to most people are completely foreign to me. I mean, I've had all those things before where the girl initiates contact 60-70% of the time at least. If anything, she was coming off as needy. But I wasn't annoyed because I liked her. And she did ask me questions, and answered mine with long, complete thoughts. And yet, no dice. So I don't understand. I think that somewhere along the line I didn't play it cool enough but it still eludes me. All I know is that I never seen to get anywhere with girls I actually want to get somewhere with, which leads me to believe I'm coming off as needy somehow. The only thing I haven't ever tried is being a "cool", "tough guy", "macho man" because one, I don't like those people and two, it is so far away from who I am. It would make no sense to me.

 

[Rosewood]

There is no one gender immune from being dishonest and horrible in person or online. Look for someone with your values and proceed with care and caution. I always say prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Money,love, time, and caring are all things men and women should carefully invest. If someone is not right you can't change them and you move on.It is not about you. Life seldom is. It's not a gender issue.

 

[ladyforsaken]

It's not "faking apathy". It's giving people space!!!!!! Because they need it!!!!! You don't have to talk to someone 24/7 and call and text all the time to care about them!!!!!!!!! And if think so there is your problem!!!!!

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

It's not the "giving people space" thing that I don't get. I understand that. It's more like, the acting "too cool for school" that you are supposed to do. That isn't natural for me. Sarcasm, making fun of someone, stuff like that. I just don't do it in my daily life.

I'm sorry that I've come off as frustrating but in terms of dating, think of me as pretty much a Martian. I don't speak the language, and all the customs that are well known to most people are completely foreign to me. I mean, I've had all those things before where the girl initiates contact 60-70% of the time at least. If anything, she was coming off as needy. But I wasn't annoyed because I liked her. And she did ask me questions, and answered mine with long, complete thoughts. And yet, no dice. So I don't understand. I think that somewhere along the line I didn't play it cool enough but it still eludes me. All I know is that I never seen to get anywhere with girls I actually want to get somewhere with, which leads me to believe I'm coming off as needy somehow. The only thing I haven't ever tried is being a "cool", "tough guy", "macho man" because one, I don't like those people and two, it is so far away from who I am. It would make no sense to me.

Then just be yourself and you will attract the people who will like you for you. You don't have to pretend to be a certain way just to get the girl you like. If she doesn't like the things you do or how you are, she's not right for you, it will not work and there is no point just trying to even think about it.

It will happen, if you allow for it to happen. Right now, Ska, I'll be honest to say that I don't think you're allowing it because you're still dwelling on this particular issue and not really moving on and getting out of it. Until you do that, it's hard to see anything positive that could happen.

 

[Solivagant]

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

Welcome to ALL, lol.

 

[ardour]

It's not "faking apathy". It's giving people space!!!!!! Because they need it!!!!! You don't have to talk to someone 24/7 and call and text all the time to care about them!!!!!!!!! And if think so there is your problem!!!!!

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

ahh.... it was you who decided to make it about "giving them space", as if that were his problem. A sensible person would know not to crowd someone.

 

[Ymir]

Oh, oops, I apologize for misunderstanding the problem then. It was not proposital.

Still, I'm going to keep my opinion pretty short on this (if I got the issue right this time) and say no more: I wonder if you guys' lack of trust in women's judgement seep into other things. Because you guys aren't looking for an answer, since you think you already got it. Re-read all of your posts about this and find one that DOESN'T translate to: "Woman must be crazy. All they want is guys that are not me and that I completely misjudge and brush off as "tough", "macho" and a bad choice without knowing them personally. I'm the good choice. I'll ask for help on how to fix this but I don't need fixing. Women need fixing."

As a woman (well, girl I guess), I find your posts on the matter kind of insulting to my gender and I wonder if it's the only instance that you guys come off as insulting to women which just might put them off. Now, some women DO have some problems judging people but not all of them. If you think this is a big societal problem and all women were taught to only make bad choices, you are the problem. Not women.

 

[ladyforsaken]

All I see is a frustrated guy. Probably not the most pleasant person to talk with. I wonder why he picked you to rant to after three months of silence.

Probably because she did go out with him and he had to pay for meal etc and he probably was no longer in contact with other girls he had to pay for. Just a guess.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Re-read all of your posts about this and find one that DOESN'T translate to: "Woman must be crazy. All they want is guys that are not me and that I completely misjudge and brush off as "tough", "macho" and a bad choice without knowing them personally. I'm the good choice. I'll ask for help on how to fix this but I don't need fixing. Women need fixing."

For me I'm just venting really. I don't think women are crazy. But I do think there are some societal ruses that are at play. For example, this not-so-closeted reverence society has of outlaws and criminals. Makes it hard to get anywhere even as a genuinely nice guy.

The other thing is, I used to say image doesn't matter but it really does. How you choose to look communicates a lot about you. These guys don't just accidentally wake up in the morning looking like a gang member. It's a choice. Because they want to cultivate a "badass", "macho" image. They look that way so others say "watch out, we got a tough guy here" and collect all of the perks from the aforementioned reverence. So it's not that much of a misjudgment.

But I do know that I am the one that needs fixing. Not women. I never said I didn't, but I do believe I could be a really good choice someday. A lot better choice than a guy who may or may not drink himself to death or wind up in jail. Trustworthy doesn't mean "not fun". Idk. If I'm insulting it's cause I've reached the breaking point of frustration. Maybe this is all some crooked test. I don't know.

 

[painter's radio]

I think what we need to remember is that a lot of people on the planet are ******* idiots. These idiots will be attracted to other idiots, so idiotic women will end up with idiotic men. If a girl you like ends up with some awful wannabe-gangster macho type then we can conclude she is an idiot.

But I also think that in slightly less idiotic media, the portrayal and reverance of "badboy" characters is a little different. Take Game of Thrones for example. We like the badboy characters, but we like them more when they have something nice about them, not something horrid. No one looked at Joffrey and thought "ooh yeah he's a real horrid badboy I'd let him jump my bones" but, despite his facial scarring, I bet The Hound brought the cream to Australia, if you know what I mean. Because he had good qualities, too.

Perhaps it's people within a certain age-group. Some take longer than others to evolve through their phases of attraction.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I think what we need to remember is that a lot of people on the planet are ******* idiots. These idiots will be attracted to other idiots, so idiotic women will end up with idiotic men. If a girl you like ends up with some awful wannabe-gangster macho type then we can conclude she is an idiot.

Yea, I mean, I think this is right. There are a lot of idiots, who in turn look up to other idiots. Because stupid is what's cool to them, so the dumber someone is, the cooler they seem. I get that.

But I also think that in slightly less idiotic media, the portrayal and reverance of "badboy" characters is a little different. Take Game of Thrones for example. We like the badboy characters, but we like them more when they have something nice about them, not something horrid. No one looked at Joffrey and thought "ooh yeah he's a real horrid badboy I'd let him jump my bones" but, despite his facial scarring, I bet The Hound brought the cream to Australia, if you know what I mean. Because he had good qualities, too.

Perhaps it's people within a certain age-group. Some take longer than others to evolve through their phases of attraction.

I think the age group thing is definitely at play here. I tend to like younger women (no, not the illegal kind) so I've got the deck stacked a little against me here, since this is the demographic where "bad boys" have the most appeal and the girls have the least experience with just knowing those people are wrong. I'm definitely the visiting team so I have to bring my A game.

As far as GoT though, I haven't watched a lot but I myself liked the Starks, Ned, Robb, and Jon Snow. I wouldn't say they are "bad boys" at all, I guess it figures. Then again, look what being good got Ned and Robb - maybe I am the idiot after all.

PS - "Bringing the cream to Australia", what a colorful expression. Made me laugh

 

[PieBeNice]

I am about pretty much done trying to help here because you guys will just misunderstand and twist words and keep the logical fallacies going to continue the circlejerk.

Welcome to ALL, lol.

That really does sum up ALL perfectly.

 

[painter's radio]

As far as GoT though, I haven't watched a lot but I myself liked the Starks, Ned, Robb, and Jon Snow. I wouldn't say they are "bad boys" at all, I guess it figures. Then again, look what being good got Ned and Robb - maybe I am the idiot after all.

PS - "Bringing the cream to Australia", what a colorful expression. Made me laugh

True, they are not badboys in the sense that they are evil, raping wife-beaters or thugs, they are good people. But they have that vibe to them, you know? The renegade or the lone wolf, the type that is not afraid to break the rules to do what he believes is right. Bad boys don't have to be bad people, really. It's a phrase that's been corrupted over time to mean "piece of honeysuckle". Just because a guy sells pot, doesn't make him a bad person, know what I mean?

And thanks, I made that up on the spot, I liked it too.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Bad boys don't have to be bad people, really. It's a phrase that's been corrupted over time to mean "piece of honeysuckle". Just because a guy sells pot, doesn't make him a bad person, know what I mean?

And thanks, I made that up on the spot, I liked it too.

Maybe. But I'm talking about more than selling pot here. And some of these guys definitely have earned the "piece of honeysuckle" description. Ah well. Another step on my journey of 10,000 miles. Someday I will learn to play the game.