On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[ardour]

You don't have to replace the word nice. The point is that there is a difference between someone who is actually nice, a true genuinely nice person and a "nice" guy, someone who is only nice to someone in order to get something, someone who calls himself nice but is actually not nice. The woman who posted this is referring to someone who pretended to be her friend in order to get something from her and stopped being her friend because it hasn't happened. It actually is not a nice thing to do.

Of course it isn't nice to expect sex in return for being a friend.

Is wanting something "more" bad by definition though? Cause that's where that reasoning could be heading - we're supposed to be purely altruistic, in the search for a long-term partner, for instance, and be just as happy forming platonic bonds, being a pal, a source of emotional support.

Because I've heard women condemn a guy for wanting "more", yet had no problem accepting his friendship when it would have been fairly obvious early on what it was about.

 

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

The guy in the OP hardly treated the OP nice. That is the difference.

If he had treated the OP nice, he would have been a nice guy. He didn't, so he isn't.

 

[Peaches]

Lately I am beginning to think that whenever there is sex involved (and it doesn't happen) most guys get really mean and no one is actually interested in my personality or company at all, but that is just my experience
Perhaps I should try girls

 

[Limlim]

Yes, you should totally do this!

 

[TheSkaFish]

If you state your intentions from the get-go, you are shut down because it's considered unromantic. There is no suspense. But if you get to know someone and decide you are attracted to them, then you are shut down for wanting more. The thing is though, if you are too nice, you are considered a "nice guy". You are considered a baby brother, you are not viewed as a sexual being. However, if you are nasty, you are viewed as a jerk. The jerks get further with women because the jerk is preferable to the "nice guy" in the pecking order since he sends off some sexual vibes versus none. As much as I despise "bad boys", as lame as their act looks to me, I do understand why women fall for them. Even though I completely, utterly, vehemently disagree with it.

It IS a hot-and-cold game. So the question is, how do you fall into the Goldilocks zone then? Not too warm, not too cold, just right?

Obviously it is not enough to be nice, even if it is genuine. But on the other hand, we can also conclude that it's not that you have to have gang membership or gtfo. All I can think of to add is that you must be as hot as possible, and have a lot going on in your life. Don't be ugly, don't be shy, don't be boring. You need swagger (cringes while saying it) of some kind, and I think that's the hard part for a lot of people on here - swagger has not come naturally to us. Our thoughts, beliefs, and experiences have taught us that it's rude to have it, that we don't have it, that we have nothing to be boastful about. But if you can't boast then you can't play.

As men, it seems, we HAVE to be a little obnoxious. Seems like it's par for the course.

 

[My War]

LeaningintotheMuse Wrote:

I don't think they always mean malice by it, but I certainly can relate. Many women don't see how insulting this can be.

It has gotten to the point where I just know it is coming. But I suppose I will keep on asking, hoping that it will not happen the next time.

Yeah I know they are trying to let me down easily etc But it's just insulting in the end not just emotionally but also intellectually, if I am so great what is the problem.

I agree as well I also see it coming, I also feel the "shift" in emotions with her, I have met a few women where they start off really keen we even make out and everything is going so well and then somewhere along the line you feel the "shift" in emotions from them and then usually the next day I get the phone call or email with the usual "Well I loved being with you blah blah blah"

I have on occasion even hanged up the phone when they started the "Nice Guy" speech or just interrupted them and say "Sure no worries, bye".

I know it sounds like sour grapes but it's not about being rejected it's just about getting an upfront rejection even if it's just "I don't think this will work" that would be fine with me, the "Nice Guy" speech to me is just a way of hedging their bets and trying to set up a "go to guy".

TheSkaFish Wrote:

If you state your intentions from the get-go, you are shut down because it's considered unromantic. There is no suspense. But if you get to know someone and decide you are attracted to them, then you are shut down for wanting more. The thing is though, if you are too nice, you are considered a "nice guy". You are considered a baby brother, you are not viewed as a sexual being. However, if you are nasty, you are viewed as a jerk. The jerks get further with women because the jerk is preferable to the "nice guy" in the pecking order since he sends off some sexual vibes versus none. As much as I despise "bad boys", as lame as their act looks to me, I do understand why women fall for them. Even though I completely, utterly, vehemently disagree with it.

It IS a hot-and-cold game. So the question is, how do you fall into the Goldilocks zone then? Not too warm, not too cold, just right?

Obviously it is not enough to be nice, even if it is genuine. But on the other hand, we can also conclude that it's not that you have to have gang membership or gtfo. All I can think of to add is that you must be as hot as possible, and have a lot going on in your life. Don't be ugly, don't be shy, don't be boring. You need swagger (cringes while saying it) of some kind, and I think that's the hard part for a lot of people on here - swagger has not come naturally to us. Our thoughts, beliefs, and experiences have taught us that it's rude to have it, that we don't have it, that we have nothing to be boastful about. But if you can't boast then you can't play.

As men, it seems, we HAVE to be a little obnoxious. Seems like it's par for the course.

Women like confidence and that is where the bad boys have an advantage as their swagger is really obvious the irony is the bad boys are just fakers and there is a difference between confidence and arrogance, but hey if a woman wants that then she can deal with the mess it makes for her that's fine.

I have also noticed that if she thinks the guy is good looking than his personality doesn't matter one bit in the end.

 

[painter's radio]

In before honeysuckle-storm

 

[ardour]

To be fair My War is talking about women he's dated, not pretended to be a friend to.

Don't be ugly, don't be shy, don't be boring.

quite...

I have on occasion even hanged up the phone when they started the "Nice Guy" speech or just interrupted them and say "Sure no worries, bye".

Probably the best thing you could have done; remove yourself from the situation keeping a bit of self-respect in the process, without sounding too bitter about it.

 

[Sci-Fi]

No gender bashing or generalizing.

 

[My War]

No gender bashing or generalizing.

Seems the ones getting bashed here are males. Perhaps if you qualified your generalized comment we would know what you are talking about.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

You don't have to replace the word nice. The point is that there is a difference between someone who is actually nice, a true genuinely nice person and a "nice" guy, someone who is only nice to someone in order to get something, someone who calls himself nice but is actually not nice. The woman who posted this is referring to someone who pretended to be her friend in order to get something from her and stopped being her friend because it hasn't happened. It actually is not a nice thing to do.

Of course it isn't nice to expect sex in return for being a friend.

Is wanting something "more" bad by definition though? Cause that's where that reasoning could be heading - we're supposed to be purely altruistic, in the search for a long-term partner, for instance, and be just as happy forming platonic bonds, being a pal, a source of emotional support.

Because I've heard women condemn a guy for wanting "more", yet had no problem accepting his friendship when it would have been fairly obvious early on what it was about.

There is nothing wrong with wanting more if you make your intentions clear. This way when a woman says "I just want to be friends" you can choose to either move on and leave her alone or enjoy the friendship. Either one of these decisions would be right and mature. OK Cupid Guy did neither of these. And I didn't even say "Let's be friends" because I know better, it's a dating site after all. I just told him I like him as a person but didn't feel any chemistry. He said he is not on a dating site to make friends. I understood. But instead of leaving me alone which would have been appropriate for him not being my friend he continued to contact me by text twice. The first time it was just to say hi, no harm there, the second was not just to say hi but to take out his frustration out on me because no woman who he was nice enough to invest his time and money on dates wants to have sex with him. This was inappropriate. And I don't want him to contact me again.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Don't be ugly, don't be shy, don't be boring.

quite...

Eh, I'm sorry if I've come off as rude. The thing is, I just really feel like the dating process is very unforgiving and harsh. I wish it could be like some happy movie where we learn how to be a hero, save the day and win the hand of the princess. Sometimes you even have to re-wire your instincts, I know I do. I grew up thinking that being nice and sweet was being romantic. But that hasn't been working so well with me. I think I need to have more going on with me, so I'm not just nice, but I have more depth. Also I need to work on being better with teasing and joking with people, especially girls. I can hold a conversation with almost anyone pretty well, but I've never been that good at teasing, which seems to be what flirting is all about. Playful teasing, possibly in a slightly sexual fashion.

"Ugly" is subjective anyway so maybe all it takes to solve that is just to be clean, and as in shape as you can get. Shy and boring, all I can think of there is that the more you have going on in your life, the more you will have to talk about and the more potential you have of having common interests to bond over with someone.

Out of curiosity, what are your interests, ardour? What kinds of things do you enjoy reading about or doing?

 

[ardour]

You don't have to replace the word nice. The point is that there is a difference between someone who is actually nice, a true genuinely nice person and a "nice" guy, someone who is only nice to someone in order to get something, someone who calls himself nice but is actually not nice. The woman who posted this is referring to someone who pretended to be her friend in order to get something from her and stopped being her friend because it hasn't happened. It actually is not a nice thing to do.

Of course it isn't nice to expect sex in return for being a friend.

Is wanting something "more" bad by definition though? Cause that's where that reasoning could be heading - we're supposed to be purely altruistic, in the search for a long-term partner, for instance, and be just as happy forming platonic bonds, being a pal, a source of emotional support.

Because I've heard women condemn a guy for wanting "more", yet had no problem accepting his friendship when it would have been fairly obvious early on what it was about.

There is nothing wrong with wanting more if you make your intentions clear. This way when a woman says "I just want to be friends" you can choose to either move on and leave her alone or enjoy the friendship. Either one of these decisions would be right and mature. OK Cupid Guy did neither of these. And I didn't even say "Let's be friends" because I know better, it's a dating site after all. I just told him I like him as a person but didn't feel any chemistry. He said he is not on a dating site to make friends. I understood. But instead of leaving me alone which would have been appropriate for him not being my friend he continued to contact me by text twice. The first time it was just to say hi, no harm there, the second was not just to say hi but to take out his frustration out on me because no woman who he was nice enough to invest his time and money on dates wants to have sex with him. This was inappropriate. And I don't want him to contact me again.

That sounds reasonable and fair until you realize that there are very few situations outside of a dating website or a blind date where being "upfront" and open about that to a stranger would be considered acceptable. Outside of this we're left in situations where we have to get to know women with the hope that something develops, and thus open ourselves up to accusations of nice guyish type behaviour (only befriending women because we want something more.)

 

[Batman55]

Probably "genuine guy". A rare species apparently.

Good point.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

You don't have to replace the word nice. The point is that there is a difference between someone who is actually nice, a true genuinely nice person and a "nice" guy, someone who is only nice to someone in order to get something, someone who calls himself nice but is actually not nice. The woman who posted this is referring to someone who pretended to be her friend in order to get something from her and stopped being her friend because it hasn't happened. It actually is not a nice thing to do.

Of course it isn't nice to expect sex in return for being a friend.

Is wanting something "more" bad by definition though? Cause that's where that reasoning could be heading - we're supposed to be purely altruistic, in the search for a long-term partner, for instance, and be just as happy forming platonic bonds, being a pal, a source of emotional support.

Because I've heard women condemn a guy for wanting "more", yet had no problem accepting his friendship when it would have been fairly obvious early on what it was about.

There is nothing wrong with wanting more if you make your intentions clear. This way when a woman says "I just want to be friends" you can choose to either move on and leave her alone or enjoy the friendship. Either one of these decisions would be right and mature. OK Cupid Guy did neither of these. And I didn't even say "Let's be friends" because I know better, it's a dating site after all. I just told him I like him as a person but didn't feel any chemistry. He said he is not on a dating site to make friends. I understood. But instead of leaving me alone which would have been appropriate for him not being my friend he continued to contact me by text twice. The first time it was just to say hi, no harm there, the second was not just to say hi but to take out his frustration out on me because no woman who he was nice enough to invest his time and money on dates wants to have sex with him. This was inappropriate. And I don't want him to contact me again.

That sounds reasonable and fair until you realize that there are very few situations outside of a dating website or a blind date where being "upfront" and open about that to a stranger would be considered acceptable. Outside of this we're left in situations where we have to get to know women with the hope that something develops, and thus open ourselves up to accusations of nice guyish type behaviour (only befriending women because we want something more.)

Of course it's not acceptable to be upfront with a complete stranger outside of a dating site or blind date and it would be strange to instantly want something more from someone you just met. But there comes a point after a certain about of connection has been made where you decide what you want and you communicate your intent, even asking someone on a date communicates intent. And it's always best to do it sooner than later, not like that silly MTV show Friend Zone where you have people who have been platonic friends for years and one person actually waited years to to tell the other he/she wants more than friendship. This TV show makes me laugh. They haven't aired it in a long time. Anyway this should keep you out of the Friend Zone with people you are sexually or romantically interested in unless you want to be there by choice. Just don't play the friend card unless you genuinely like someone only as a friend and you won't get the unwanted Friend Zone.

 

[Batman55]

If you state your intentions from the get-go, you are shut down because it's considered unromantic. There is no suspense. But if you get to know someone and decide you are attracted to them, then you are shut down for wanting more. The thing is though, if you are too nice, you are considered a "nice guy". You are considered a baby brother, you are not viewed as a sexual being. However, if you are nasty, you are viewed as a jerk. The jerks get further with women because the jerk is preferable to the "nice guy" in the pecking order since he sends off some sexual vibes versus none. As much as I despise "bad boys", as lame as their act looks to me, I do understand why women fall for them. Even though I completely, utterly, vehemently disagree with it.

It IS a hot-and-cold game. So the question is, how do you fall into the Goldilocks zone then? Not too warm, not too cold, just right?

Let's have a good think about this stuff... is it really worth the bother, the complexities, the potential fallout, the psychic distress...?

That's why I sometimes think that men who are chronically inexperienced or and/or frequently rejected, should think about finding ways to quell their natural longings and desire for female company of a romantic or sensual type. It is natural to be preoccupied with this, unfortunately, especially when so many guys around seem to have it easy. One tends to think "why not me?" either because it's natural to be envious, or perhaps due to the entitlement that comes with the 1st world affluence, or perhaps both.

Maybe if one can remove the longing, the psychic pain would start to dissipate, and perhaps the expectations and urgency would go away. Once that is accomplished, perhaps the idea then is to have faith that things will improve, and then if they don't, just go around every day and think you're awesome anyway because you're not dependent on the affections of women to validate yourself.

Anyway you hang it, though, for those chronically unlucky in love, this is a black-and-white problem with a black-and-white solution. There is no middle ground here, IMHO.

---

All I can think of to add is that you must be as hot as possible, and have a lot going on in your life. Don't be ugly, don't be shy, don't be boring. You need swagger (cringes while saying it) of some kind, and I think that's the hard part for a lot of people on here - swagger has not come naturally to us. Our thoughts, beliefs, and experiences have taught us that it's rude to have it, that we don't have it, that we have nothing to be boastful about. But if you can't boast then you can't play.

While I have agreed with some things you said about "improvement" in the past, I think you're just going to be torturing yourself thinking this way, once you find out the improvements you plan to make (see quote) don't really fit your personality.

Another thing you forget is that women like men who are comfortable with themselves.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Mm, I don't know man. The way I see it, this is a problem, and there is a solution. It's obviously not impossible, and there are various degrees of playing a good game or a bad game, as in sports. Depending on your "opponent", you have more or less wiggle room to play a good game. Some require the utmost game, while others, you can get by with not being perfect.

As for personality - again, I think it is fluid. The personality I have is based on everything that has happened up until now, and my thoughts, beliefs, actions, and reactions to it. I don't think we are destined or hardwired to be any particular way or another. Otherwise, you could be stuck being someone you don't want to be, getting something you don't want to get over and over. I'd think one owes it to oneself to try to figure it out. That's why I think "why not me?" Because I've experienced feeling like I just can't, and been deeply unsatisfied with it. So I just have to try something else, almost anything else.

To me, is it worth the complexity? I say yes. At this point, I want to conquer the problem almost as much as I want a girlfriend.

 

[ardour]

Of course it's not acceptable to be upfront with a complete stranger outside of a dating site or blind date and it would be strange to instantly want something more from someone you just met. But there comes a point after a certain about of connection has been made where you decide what you want and you communicate your intent, even asking someone on a date communicates intent. And it's always best to do it sooner than later, not like that silly MTV show Friend Zone where you have people who have been platonic friends for years and one person actually waited years to to tell the other he/she wants more than friendship. This TV show makes me laugh. They haven't aired it in a long time. Anyway this should keep you out of the Friend Zone with people you are sexually or romantically interested in unless you want to be there by choice. Just don't play the friend card unless you genuinely like someone only as a friend and you won't get the unwanted Friend Zone.

Communicating interest within a wider circle of acquaintances isn't as simple as that. Men with a lot going for them have an easier time because women are inclined to give them clear signals. Less attractive men who women aren’t sure about at first, that’s a different scenario. You really don’t know how it’s going to be taken - should could say yes, politely decline or get upset and tell your mutual friends how uncomfortable you made her feel. There’s no advice you can give to get around that situation. We have to take a gamble, the worst consequences being rumours, potentially losing friends, plus the extreme embarrassment.

 

[Zett]

Mm, I don't know man. The way I see it, this is a problem, and there is a solution. It's obviously not impossible, and there are various degrees of playing a good game or a bad game, as in sports. Depending on your "opponent", you have more or less wiggle room to play a good game. Some require the utmost game, while others, you can get by with not being perfect.

As for personality - again, I think it is fluid. The personality I have is based on everything that has happened up until now, and my thoughts, beliefs, actions, and reactions to it. I don't think we are destined or hardwired to be any particular way or another.

Wanted to post to keep you thinking this way because looking at it in a problem solving manner is a very good approach. Personality is fluid, it is not set in stone despite what some people think. Your experiences and beliefs shape you and when you come to the awareness to challenge the things you once believed you are able to become the character you want to be. You also mentioned that being nice isn't enough and that men may have to be obnoxious to get somewhere. I want to give you a different angle that isn't quite so negative.

I still think being nice is a great quality, you should never stop being nice if that's something you want to be, and not because you want external validation. However, like you said it's just one trait and it isn't likely enough on its own to attract a potential partner, plus the fact that no one is likely to think you're genuinely nice until they really get to know you long enough. It takes a while to trust someone to that extent.

In regards to swagger, I don't think it's quite that or perhaps my understanding of that word is different. I'd say individuality expressed through character. What makes you unique? And not just unique but unique in a way that makes a person want to get to know you.

You can't really do much about your genetic appearance besides surgery but you can change how you represent yourself. Being hygienic, taking care of your teeth, your skin, your smell (bad breath is the fastest turn off next to bad body odor), your health, your posture. To dressing in the way that you think best represents yourself is the best way to go about it. You can learn a lot about visual representation from the type of people you observe, it's like a dress code of sorts. Defining your own style is a good part of expressing your individual flavor which is part of the attraction. I'm personally a big fan of how some males represent themselves in the world of magic (illusionists etc). Some of these guys have really elevated the way they look by sculpting a good physique through physical training and wearing clothes that taper to their shape. Visual representation is just one piece of the entire package for attraction though and is what I'd say gets you a foot in the door.

Expressing yourself can be a difficult challenge in the speaking context because not everyone develops the social skills necessary. You could practice it and get better at it through constant social exposure and through self correction. Alternatively there are ways that shy people get their partners and it's through other avenues of expression. This could be through the work they create, perhaps art or music or anything really where a piece of their character shines through what they create. In this other manner, other people are more likely to reach out to them in private. This forum is an avenue for such paths, where even the shy can find a way to express their opinions. This is actually how I met my last girlfriend, I got to skip the appearance validation because I met her online through a forum and in a game (I never posted my picture online before).

There are ways to express your values without being boastful. It's like the difference between someone announcing their IQ results or how intelligent they are instead of realizing it can be ascertained by the way they already express themselves. There are so many ways to go about expressing your qualities without having to be socially awkward.

So in this respect I don't think all men have to subscribe to being obnoxious, they just need to be sure of who they are and how they want to express that. Build an identity through your values and your interests and find a way to express that through all aspects of your life. Through your physical representation, the way you write or do things and the way you connect with other people.

 

[ardour]

Out of curiosity, what are your interests, ardour? What kinds of things do you enjoy reading about or doing?

I have solitary, immature hobbies like gaming, reading ancient history, science fiction/fantasy tv series. I have trouble relating to people who don't share the my limited interests as I'm quite ignorant of most things really. I haven't traveled much since the prospect of doing it alone didn't appeal to me. Never even bothered learning how to drive. In summary; a man-child with little to offer.