On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[TheSkaFish]

Zett, thanks for your post. Sometimes, as I try to understand dating, relationships, and attraction, I find myself slipping into bitterness and cynicism and a downright mean and hostile attitude. Your views on it were refreshing, and help me view the problem and solution in a more positive setting.

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Out of curiosity, what are your interests, ardour? What kinds of things do you enjoy reading about or doing?

I have solitary, immature hobbies like gaming, reading ancient history, science fiction/fantasy tv series. I have trouble relating to people who don't share the my limited interests as I'm quite ignorant of most things really. I haven't traveled much since the prospect of doing it alone didn't appeal to me. Never even bothered learning how to drive. In summary; a man-child with little to offer.

Nothing wrong with these interests, in fact, one of the girls I'd crushed the hardest for was interested in all of those and more.

Sometimes I feel like a man-child as well. But maybe it's thinking that that is a problem, which is the problem.

 

[Peaches]

If you state your intentions from the get-go, you are shut down because it's considered unromantic. There is no suspense. But if you get to know someone and decide you are attracted to them, then you are shut down for wanting more. The thing is though, if you are too nice, you are considered a "nice guy". You are considered a baby brother, you are not viewed as a sexual being. However, if you are nasty, you are viewed as a jerk. The jerks get further with women because the jerk is preferable to the "nice guy" in the pecking order since he sends off some sexual vibes versus none. As much as I despise "bad boys", as lame as their act looks to me, I do understand why women fall for them. Even though I completely, utterly, vehemently disagree with it.

It IS a hot-and-cold game. So the question is, how do you fall into the Goldilocks zone then? Not too warm, not too cold, just right?

Let's have a good think about this stuff... is it really worth the bother, the complexities, the potential fallout, the psychic distress...?

That's why I sometimes think that men who are chronically inexperienced or and/or frequently rejected, should think about finding ways to quell their natural longings and desire for female company of a romantic or sensual type. It is natural to be preoccupied with this, unfortunately, especially when so many guys around seem to have it easy. One tends to think "why not me?" either because it's natural to be envious, or perhaps due to the entitlement that comes with the 1st world affluence, or perhaps both.

Maybe if one can remove the longing, the psychic pain would start to dissipate, and perhaps the expectations and urgency would go away. Once that is accomplished, perhaps the idea then is to have faith that things will improve, and then if they don't, just go around every day and think you're awesome anyway because you're not dependent on the affections of women to validate yourself.


for those chronically unlucky in love,


[/quote]

those chronically unlucky in love could start seeing women as human beings and not just objects of desire, and could start considering the women's feelings as well as keeping score if they get lucky or not. That is the most disappointing feeling, being just an object, that is the absolute turn-off

 

[TheSkaFish]

those chronically unlucky in love could start seeing women as human beings and not just objects of desire, and could start considering the women's feelings as well as keeping score if they get lucky or not. That is the most disappointing feeling, being just an object, that is the absolute turn-off

I can't speak for the rest, but I do consider the women's feelings. Women have told me I make them happy before, that they want me around. They have implied that I am interesting - at least by way of giving me long, well-thought out conversations instead of snappy, incomplete sentences. And a whole mess of other things.

It doesn't make me feel like I'm about to "score" and that's all. It makes me feel like I finally found the needle in the haystack. It makes me feel like the clouds are parting and the sun is shining through at last - like the bleakness is over this time. It makes me feel like I've found my partner-in-crime - scratch that, I hate crime. My partner in goodness. Someone to share life with and make some great memories with.

The disappointing feeling you described of being seen as an object is exactly what it feels like to be friendzoned - to be seen as a nothing by the one you love, to be seen as a non-person. There is hurt on both sides, and I'm sure it's evenly shared.

 

[Peaches]

I beg to differ: a friend (a real one) is much much better than a non person.

 

[Batman55]

Wanted to post to keep you thinking this way because looking at it in a problem solving manner is a very good approach. Personality is fluid, it is not set in stone despite what some people think. Your experiences and beliefs shape you and when you come to the awareness to challenge the things you once believed you are able to become the character you want to be. You also mentioned that being nice isn't enough and that men may have to be obnoxious to get somewhere. I want to give you a different angle that isn't quite so negative.

Personality may not be set in stone, but if you have to change things about yourself that contradict your natural inclinations.. and not only that, but do it PRIMARILY so you can attract more attention from women.. it builds up to a level of artifice that only the most dedicated actor could make believable. In other words, it is not good for authenticity, and just from reading this very forum.. I see that a lot of women value authenticity in men.

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I have solitary, immature hobbies like gaming, reading ancient history, science fiction/fantasy tv series. I have trouble relating to people who don't share the my limited interests as I'm quite ignorant of most things really. I haven't traveled much since the prospect of doing it alone didn't appeal to me. Never even bothered learning how to drive. In summary; a man-child with little to offer.

That's not called being a man-child anymore, it's called being a geek. It is a good thing now, as well, since geekery has gone mainstream.

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those chronically unlucky in love could start seeing women as human beings and not just objects of desire, and could start considering the women's feelings as well as keeping score if they get lucky or not. That is the most disappointing feeling, being just an object, that is the absolute turn-off

That's NOT what I said. Nowhere in that post did I say men should "keep score" or ONLY try to get lucky.. in fact I said ROMANTIC interest in women is a problem as well, NOT JUST the shallow stuff.

I'm sorry if it really comes across as offensive, it's not my intention. All I can speak of is from my own very, very limited experience, you might want to keep that in mind if the "one-sided" nature of my posts bothers you THAT much. I'm not a very social animal.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

I beg to differ: a friend (a real one) is much much better than a non person.

I totally agree with you Peaches. I would much rather be friend zoned than seen as an object. I've been on both sides of the fence. I was friend zoned by a guy when I was 24. He was focused on his career and didn't want a girlfriend. He wanted friendship from me and we hung out a lot. I was very attracted to him, in fact I had a full blown crush on him so yes, it was hard, but I still enjoyed the friendship and think well of him to this day. I cannot say the same for anyone who just saw me as an object.

In fact I love the friend zone!!! If someone likes my personality it's an honor! I want the relationship zone too someday but I will not turn down friendship.

 

[ardour]

those chronically unlucky in love could start seeing women as human beings and not just objects of desire, and could start considering the women's feelings as well as keeping score if they get lucky or not. That is the most disappointing feeling, being just an object, that is the absolute turn-off

Going by previous posts you've had some ugly experiences with men... but that judgement is part of what keeps us (here) in a kind of stasis; why would I approach and get to know women if they seem eager believe I want to use them, to believe the absolute worst.

 

[Solivagant]

The disappointing feeling you described of being seen as an object is exactly what it feels like to be friendzoned - to be seen as a nothing by the one you love, to be seen as a non-person.

I beg to differ: a friend (a real one) is much much better than a non person.

I totally agree with you Peaches. I would much rather be friend zoned than seen as an object.

Yeah, I also have to agree. Speaking as someone who has been "friendzoned", a lot, and objectified, a lot, they are not even close to the same thing.

 

[ardour]

"objectified" here seems to apply to more than sexual objectification, including being "idealized" or "put on a pedestal" etc.

 

[Peaches]

those chronically unlucky in love could start seeing women as human beings and not just objects of desire, and could start considering the women's feelings as well as keeping score if they get lucky or not. That is the most disappointing feeling, being just an object, that is the absolute turn-off

Going by previous posts you've had some ugly experiences with men... but that judgement is part of what keeps us (here) in a kind of stasis; why would I approach and get to know women if they seem eager believe I want to use them, to believe the absolute worst.

well, let me clarify:

I met for the first time one of those "nice guys" maybe a month ago, and it was so sad because before he decided that I was worth of his come on and started hitting on me pretty harshly, it seemed like a beautiful friendship could have bloomed, we had so much in common, and after I just said "let's know each other better first, this is too fast, I really enjoy your company", he told me basically to f*&% off.
It was interesting because that never happened to me before, and after reading a lot about "nice guys" prior to this experience I understood that they are no different from the jerks they claim to be superior to, they also think of women only in terms of "scoring".

we are not talking about men in general, we are talking about these "nice guys" who hopefully are just a minor percentage of the population, just like jerks.

Many guys, I want to believe that, also have feelings aside than physical desire, they enjoy company, chat, banter and whatnot, and they would prefer to be just friends with a really cool girl instead of cutting all contact unless the girl doesn't want to sleep with them (those guys, let me tell you, don't have many cool friends). So the shame of being "friendzoned" is really just dependent on how much a guy actually cares for a girl. If he does, he knows there is no shame in being friends, and another girl who wants to be with them will come along, and he is no less of a man because he kept contact with the first girl (unless of course he was playing the doormat, that's the image we have of a guy who gets "friend zoned", if for example she asks him to drive she and her date around he will be quite justified in letting her go). Actually a guy like that, who likes women not just when they will sleep with him, is much more of a man, because real men have feelings too. Only really mature guys probably think like this, and (mature) girls love them.

Batman55, you are never offensive sorry if I misunderstood your post - you are right, if the romantic interest is too strong then that also is a problem, and one has to wager the pros and cons of such friendly relationship (someone I can call up if I have a problem versus pain of unrequited love), I was thinking about the so-called "nice guys" of the initial post, who are nothing but nice and can quickly forget about any romantic feelings they might have had because they were never so strong in the first place.

Alonewith2cats, I love the friend zone too! it hurts, but at least I can say that they liked my personality, as opposed to total despise, body and soul.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I guess I don't know. A lot of the time with people, "let's just be friends" usually means anything from "I don't care to talk to you ever again" all the way to "f off". It's usually a polite euphemism, not an actual invitation of friendship.

Perhaps, 2cats and Peaches, when you say "let's just be friends" you actually mean it. That's highly unusual, believe it or not. Not that that is necessarily bad, it's just, when people say "let's just be friends" they usually don't mean it at all.

 

[VanillaCreme]

In fact I love the friend zone!!! If someone likes my personality it's an honor! I want the relationship zone too someday but I will not turn down friendship.

That's probably one of the most refreshing things I've ever read on this forum. Thank you, 2cats. You're a beautiful person.

I guess I don't know. A lot of the time with people, "let's just be friends" usually means anything from "I don't care to talk to you ever again" all the way to "f off". It's usually a polite euphemism, not an actual invitation of friendship.

Perhaps, 2cats and Peaches, when you say "let's just be friends" you actually mean it. That's highly unusual, believe it or not. Not that that is necessarily bad, it's just, when people say "let's just be friends" they usually don't mean it at all.

Ska, I'd say usually the "let's just be friends" line means that someone's not interested. And instead of hurting feelings, they just try to lower the feelings a few levels. Honestly, would you rather have the thought of being friends with someone, or would you prefer to be lead on without any sure chance of ever being with the person?

 

[TheSkaFish]

I never say never, there's always a chance it could work out. But I'd honestly rather someone tell me to go to hell than "lets just be friends". It would be like ripping a band-aid off quickly. And it would make it easier to dislike the girl entirely, and have no problems not talking to her again.

 

[Peaches]

well, yes, don't know about Alonewith2cats, but I usually say "let's be friends" only to those I'd actually like to be friends with, otherwise I am stuck with some obnoxious people who want to be friends and talk

 

[VanillaCreme]

I never say never, there's always a chance it could work out. But I'd honestly rather someone tell me to go to hell than "lets just be friends". It would be like ripping a band-aid off quickly. And it would make it easier to dislike the girl entirely, and have no problems not talking to her again.

Why dislike her if she chooses not to date you? Why not have a friendship, if she does really continue talking to you?

 

[TheSkaFish]

Because watching a girl who has everything I am looking for who had been talking to me and potentially been in a relationship with had I played my cards right, go off with another guy is just too painful. To feel like I am going in the direction I want to be going, only to run up against the harsh reality that I am not, is just too much. It's like, I thought I had finally broken through, I thought I had finally gotten enough confidence and was interesting enough to finally be considered an attractive man by someone that I actually want. And to see them go off with someone else and pass me up is a slap in the face and a reminder that I am still nowhere near the person I want to be.

I suppose I could be friends with her in the hopes that she may change her mind later. But it just feels like there is a constant problem that I need to solve. It is not at all enjoyable.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Because watching a girl who has everything I am looking for who had been talking to me and potentially been in a relationship with had I played my cards right, go off with another guy is just too painful. To feel like I am going in the direction I want to be going, only to run up against the harsh reality that I am not, is just too much.

I suppose I could be friends with her in the hopes that she may change her mind later. But it just feels like there is a constant problem that I need to solve. It's a very unpleasant feeling.

You wouldn't know if she was what you're looking for though. Unless you already know her. If you said you were deeply in love with your best female friend of 10 years, and saw her go off to her jackass of a boyfriend, then I'd completely understand. And please, don't think I'm attacking you. I'm really trying to understand. I guess I just believe in what happens, happens for a reason. You can't see the opportunity for one door opening if you're busy looking back at the door that just closed.

 

[TheSkaFish]

You wouldn't know if she was what you're looking for though. Unless you already know her. If you said you were deeply in love with your best female friend of 10 years, and saw her go off to her jackass of a boyfriend, then I'd completely understand. And please, don't think I'm attacking you. I'm really trying to understand. I guess I just believe in what happens, happens for a reason. You can't see the opportunity for one door opening if you're busy looking back at the door that just closed.

Usually it is someone I already know, enough to know that I like both the looks and the character of the girl.

I don't think you are attacking me. It's just a harsh situation. It's hard to really see finding someone else as an opportunity, when I feel like it will be just okay at best. There won't be a thrill, because I'd know that the only reason I'm dating them is because they were all I could get, I couldn't get what I wanted. And I won't have been what I wanted to be, which is someone to makes their life the way they want to. I'll just be someone who gets whatever they get, always wishing I could have what I want or just giving up and living the rest of my life in defeat and resignation.

I just don't want to be the kind of person who has to just learn to accept complacency. I've always dreamed of being a high-flyer. I want to make all my dreams come true. I want to be that kind of person who gets to experience that. We get one life and I want to get it right.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

I never say never, there's always a chance it could work out. But I'd honestly rather someone tell me to go to hell than "lets just be friends". It would be like ripping a band-aid off quickly. And it would make it easier to dislike the girl entirely, and have no problems not talking to her again.

But a nice person is not going to tell you to go to hell. You have a choice. You can either accept the friendship or decline it and neither one of these decisions is wrong. If you are really crushing on someone and you can't handle being friends you are not to blame for choosing to distance yourself from the person. If you can handle being friends with a girl you were initially interested in who knows what doors it might open for you because the larger your social network the more opportunities. What if she has a friend who is perfect for you?

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I guess I don't know. A lot of the time with people, "let's just be friends" usually means anything from "I don't care to talk to you ever again" all the way to "f off". It's usually a polite euphemism, not an actual invitation of friendship.

Perhaps, 2cats and Peaches, when you say "let's just be friends" you actually mean it. That's highly unusual, believe it or not. Not that that is necessarily bad, it's just, when people say "let's just be friends" they usually don't mean it at all.

Oh yes, that sucks. People will reveal their true intentions in time, if they truly want your friendship or are only saying this to soften the blow of rejection. Real friendship is something to treasure.

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well, yes, don't know about Alonewith2cats, but I usually say "let's be friends" only to those I'd actually like to be friends with, otherwise I am stuck with some obnoxious people who want to be friends and talk

I also aim to only use this phrase on people I genuinely want to be friends with. But I can't say I've never used this phrase on someone as a polite rejection before. I try not to.

I think actions speak louder than words regarding if someone really wants to be your friend.

 

[TheSkaFish]

But a nice person is not going to tell you to go to hell. You have a choice. You can either accept the friendship or decline it and neither one of these decisions is wrong. If you are really crushing on someone and you can't handle being friends you are not to blame for choosing to distance yourself from the person. If you can handle being friends with a girl you were initially interested in who knows what doors it might open for you because the larger your social network the more opportunities. What if she has a friend who is perfect for you?

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Oh yes, that sucks. People will reveal their true intentions in time, if they truly want your friendship or are only saying this to soften the blow of rejection. Real friendship is something to treasure.

I also aim to only use this phrase on people I genuinely want to be friends with. But I can't say I've never used this phrase on someone as a polite rejection before. I try not to.

I think actions speak louder than words regarding if someone really wants to be your friend.

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Eh, the thing is, it's going to hurt not getting the one I want, especially when it seemed like we could really get along, you know? Whatever opportunities I get from it won't mean a whole lot, since it's settling for someone who is just okay. She may have a friend who is perfect for me, but it would be hard to seriously date them when the only reason I'm doing so is because I couldn't get the one I want. It still means I'm not attractive - it means I'm just okay myself, and I don't want to play the part of a just okay person. I'd consider that a wasted life. Winners don't get rejected.

Either way, good on you for mostly saying that phrase when you actually mean it. That's a lot better than most women do. When people say things they don't mean, it only adds to the confusion of life.