My thoughts on this. Partly in responce to something said elsewhere on the forum. Don't really want to hijack that thread with this.
Our armed forces can choose to follow orders and be pawns where they end up as cannon fodder for an agenda and objectives that no one is really even sure of. I don’t agree with their decisions, but they aren’t mine to make so there really isn’t anything that can be done about it. I have signed impeachment petitions for several of our leaders in office, but for whatever reason they seem able to get away with their tyranny. I personally think this administration is probably the worst in the history of this country. Even with as many people as there are who hate them, they still seem untouchable. Perhaps we don’t even really have a democracy anymore. There seem to be many indicators that this may in fact be true. I just don’t know.
As far as people having good intentions in what they do. Have you forgotten that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Good intentions only amount to so much. Most of the most evil acts are committed with good intentions as the excuse. What matters more to me, is that in my mind we have only given our enemies more strength. From everything I can tell they are stronger now then they have ever been.
You say we are fighting for freedom. I say wrong, that this is just a lie that is used to manipulate those who can’t see through this deception. Our soldiers are dieing for almost no reason at all. Certainly not for freedom, that isn’t even the issue. Freedom isn’t even remotely threatened. Those who say that it is are out of their minds. We are more of a danger to our own freedom then they are to it. What 10 terrorists are going to invade our border and conquer us?
Our troops today are a different kind of soldier then those who came from days gone by. They are disposable drones, not by my voice to be sure, but I wish more people would figure this out. Maybe not disposable to those that must face them face to face, but to those in power who place agenda before lives. Those who seem blind to the true cost and who fall pray to manipulations of the powerful corporate entities that more and more run this nation. When they speak of the military industrial complex, it is this fact that frightened leaders of old the most. It is the corporate industrial nightmare we have created that places value of their money before life and liberty. Only it isn’t the countries or the individual’s money they are concerned with. It is only their own. Entities within our nation able to drive it in a way that really only serves their cause and fattens their pocket books. This is the very founding bedrock of capitalistic corporate greed. The real danger of corporations to large in size. Large enough to challenge whole governments in their own right. Corporations with profit margins that surpass small nations. That have global power that is unlike anything we have ever faced in history before. That can bankrupt the many for the enrichment of the few. Isn’t it strange that since we started all the meddling that the price of a barrel of oil has only more rapidly gone up? That we seem to have no real interest in specific goals that we are certain can be achieved and instead are bent on creating a chaotic mess. How many good honest leaders have left the military because of the lack of sense of what we are doing? Because of what seems to be a plan drawn out several years ago to attack and “conquer” the whole Middle East. Something that is in and of itself a delusional pipe dream. An idea on drugs.
Is it even possible to create a true democracy under force of arms with suppression of their own media? When so many people in a country disagree with what they want? Is it even possible for a whole nation to be confined to “our” agenda without being a mere puppet? How would we fare if we were told to meet some other nations particular criteria? Would we be crippled from making our own unique decisions? From being ourselves? Are we so perfect that we have the right to tell them what they can and cannot do? We want them to think like us, but they are not us. Nor will they ever be us. Can they ever give us what we want when they want what they want? In the end they will have to think for themselves regardless of what we want. There are no guarantees we will ever get what we want even if we stay 1000 years.
I can’t help but think that by our actions we make our enemy’s cause actually seem saner. To them. To the Arab peoples. To many others the world over. They were already fighting each other. It’s their business and really none of ours. The vast majority of them have no interest in what we are doing outside of how we affect them directly. No one there is completely innocent and we have sacrificed our own innocence and become no better then they. In other parts of the world there are innocents dieing who do not have their own representatives who are armed. Yet still, we play right into our enemy’s hands. We play the game by their rules. They thumb their noses at us to invoke a response and we give them exactly the kind of attention they desire. As if we are their puppets. We behave like cattle following a carrot on a string. We ignore the fact that this idea we face has the patience of a saint. That it cares nothing about the moment. As we slowly cripple ourselves by our own lack of self control, with our own arrogant stupidity. So much money has been utterly thrown away. Do you forget that their goal is to financially break us? That this same foolishness is how they defeated the USSR? They are wining and will always be as long as we are killing their people. This is not a war against people; it is a war against a concept and an idea. An idea that is only made more powerful with act's of violence. Terrorism can never defeat terrorism. Think we are the undisputed good guys? Think again. The only distinction between them and us is that they kill their own people. The bottom line is that no one who gets involved walks away with clean hands. You think our enemy is any different then us? That most don’t only die because of the loss of those they cared about to their cause? They are a people who have fought blood feuds for generations. Why have we allowed ourselves to be sucked in?
One does not even need to even watch the media to form an opinion. Many of the fundamentals of war have been the same for 10,000 years. It will never be different. In that history, mercenaries have always been the worst of the worst. Is it startling that we have so many mercenaries there and have been hiding that fact from the very beginning? I was hardly surprised by the more recent events over the whole mercenaries scandal. The same things that are happening now have always happened. The media never had anything to do with why I think what I think. I often tend to prefer a more independent media anyways. Too often mainstream media does a poor job.
The day we left Afghanistan and set food in Iraq is the day I lost total faith in our leadership. It became obvious then that we were being manipulated and completely lied to. The fact that all the reasons we went in proved to be false was just icing on the cake, I already suspected it was total wash. Truthfully, I had grave concern from the very beginning. The very instant we declared “War on Terror”. Instead of a War on “Al-qaeda”, “The middle east”, “Iraq”, “Afghanistan”, “Islamic Extremism”. Take your pick. Instead of a more precise declaration of war. We declare war on a subjective idea. Who chooses what the term terrorist is defined as? Who decides when someone goes from a nuisance or criminal to a terrorist? When can a war on an idea ever end? Will it ever end? What would be someone’s motive for declaring a war on a subjective noun? Can terror even be defeated? Can fear be defeated? One definition of terror is: feelings of distress brought on by impending danger. Declaring a “War on Terror” comes dangerously close to declaring war on “Everyone who disagrees with us”. Which is not democracy. Such ideals are the works of fascism. It makes me realize many people don’t even understand what democracy is. Which puts us at great risk of losing that which we fail to even recognize. When we don’t even stand up for what is so obviously wrong because we fail to even recognize how or why it is wrong. Many people think this country is on the edge of collapse. There are some that talk of our own civil war. I think we are dangerously close to an abyss. I wonder at the motivations of those who so recklessly push us ever closer to the edge. For reasons that seem uncertain. This is a war that from the very beginning was unlike any other war I know of in all of history. Which gives me grave concerns as to its true objectives and intent. You cannot declare an actual war on “Terror”. How can one defeat a word? It’s not a place, an objective, a people, a nation, or an organization. Nor is it just a code name for a list of finite definitive objectives. You might as well declare a “War on People”. Or call it “Wa er afrid sa wa keel oh”.
I wish we could get more media coverage directly from the mouths of people living in that part of the world. The fact that we don’t. Well that speaks volumes. Of course I fear that if they did. They would be hand picked according to the agenda that was being pushed. Rather then chosen at random to represent the truth or how people feel. I have read some of the Middle East’s media and that speaks volumes as well. As far as I am concerned, most people in the military. They are the ones who have been brainwashed. They have been trained to think what is desired of them. To not think outside the box. Only they don’t know it. Denial is a powerful thing.
It isn’t my fault that members of our military enlisted at a time in history where soldiers are getting the shaft. That they have to fight for every scrap they get. That is just more evidence of how far we have fallen. People don’t even need to be in the armed forces to know that it’s happening. I may have at one point agreed people should still support our troops regardless of how misguided and miss directed our agendas seem, but I don’t anymore. They made the bed they are laying in. At some point people in the right places need to put their foot down and say no more. If enough of our armed forces did that and got the American people involved. I can’t imagine they could do anything to them for standing up for what they believe in. They can follow and they can die and be maimed. But they can’t stand up and take the insults of their peers that don’t agree with them? Well, I say better to die in jail then violate the Geneva Convention or habeas corpus. Habeas corpus has been around for centuries and now we disgrace our ancestors by suddenly forgetting all that they taught us? Have we forgotten why our intelligence agencies were set up as they were as checks and balances of each other? Suddenly that doesn’t matter anymore?
A while back I ran across a good example of what we are doing as a nation. A good example of how foolish we are in our policy and practices.
Economics professors have a standard game they use to demonstrate how apparently rational decisions can create a disastrous result. They call it a 'dollar auction.' The rules are simple. The professor offers a dollar for sale to the highest bidder, with only one wrinkle: the second-highest bidder has to pay up on their losing bid as well. Several students almost always get sucked in. The first bids a penny, looking to make 99 cents. The second bids 2 cents, the third 3 cents, and so on, each feeling they have a chance at something good on the cheap. The early stages are fun, and the bidders wonder what possessed the professor to be willing to lose some money.
The problem surfaces when the bidders get up close to a dollar. After 99 cents the last vestige of profitability disappears, but the bidding continues between the two highest players. They now realize that they stand to lose no matter what, but that they can still buffer their losses by winning the dollar. They just have to outlast the other player. Following this strategy, the two hapless students usually run the bid up several dollars, turning the apparent shot at easy money into a ghastly battle of spiraling disaster.
Theoretically, there is no stable outcome once the dynamic gets going. The only clear limit is the exhaustion of one of the player's total funds. In the classroom, the auction generally ends with the grudging decision of one player to 'irrationally' accept the larger loss and get out of the terrible spiral. Economists call the dollar auction pattern an irrational escalation of commitment. We might also call it the war in Iraq."
This may be the best explanation of where Bush & Co. are in terms of their Iraq war policy. Bush is desperately trying to keep the game going and hand it off to the next president.
This example works on so many levels in so many ways. An over abundant pride that refused to accept ones mistakes hoping to accept the lesser defeat and ignore the only slightly greater. It is this, which destroyed Russia.
Terrorism has always been around. It will always be around. It covers the entire globe. Terrorism is crime. There really is little distinction. Only what is a crime should always be determined by ones peers and not by some elected official. In some ways, it is every person’s right to be a terrorist, “To die for what they believe in”. It is this fact that gives us all freedom. It is a freedom we can only lose by giving up. By failing to see that we can never lose it unless we give it away. That it is only truly in our hearts. All it takes is the belief that one is free. A nation can never lose its freedom to a ragtag bunch of criminals. We are more of a danger to ourselves then they are to us. I can’t see how some people think that terrorists are more of a threat now then they have ever been. The only real threat they pose is with nuclear weapons. That we believe that other populations are more reckless with there use is a dangerous line to tread. It is something that can be debated, but never really proven. The only real difference between now and in history past is we have leadership bent on fear mongering and spreading confusion and lies. Leadership that places value on human being’s based upon who they are and exactly what they stand for. Rather then seeing all humans as being of equal value, regardless of their nationality. Leaders that see nothing wrong with striping terrorist’s basic human rights. The most important of which is a trial by a jury of their peers. A fact that leaves extremely dangerous loopholes in our policies and doctrines. Be thankful that these terrorists we fight kill their own people and are so reckless in their actions. It is this that is their greatest mistake.
We lost utterly that very day that we lost our way and violated others rights. The day that we changed laws in our own country when we already had all the tools we needed. Laws that we had no business changing. When we abandoned the high moral ground. We should never forget that should our government utterly fail us then those who stand up against it would be dubbed terrorists.
Our armed forces can choose to follow orders and be pawns where they end up as cannon fodder for an agenda and objectives that no one is really even sure of. I don’t agree with their decisions, but they aren’t mine to make so there really isn’t anything that can be done about it. I have signed impeachment petitions for several of our leaders in office, but for whatever reason they seem able to get away with their tyranny. I personally think this administration is probably the worst in the history of this country. Even with as many people as there are who hate them, they still seem untouchable. Perhaps we don’t even really have a democracy anymore. There seem to be many indicators that this may in fact be true. I just don’t know.
As far as people having good intentions in what they do. Have you forgotten that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Good intentions only amount to so much. Most of the most evil acts are committed with good intentions as the excuse. What matters more to me, is that in my mind we have only given our enemies more strength. From everything I can tell they are stronger now then they have ever been.
You say we are fighting for freedom. I say wrong, that this is just a lie that is used to manipulate those who can’t see through this deception. Our soldiers are dieing for almost no reason at all. Certainly not for freedom, that isn’t even the issue. Freedom isn’t even remotely threatened. Those who say that it is are out of their minds. We are more of a danger to our own freedom then they are to it. What 10 terrorists are going to invade our border and conquer us?
Our troops today are a different kind of soldier then those who came from days gone by. They are disposable drones, not by my voice to be sure, but I wish more people would figure this out. Maybe not disposable to those that must face them face to face, but to those in power who place agenda before lives. Those who seem blind to the true cost and who fall pray to manipulations of the powerful corporate entities that more and more run this nation. When they speak of the military industrial complex, it is this fact that frightened leaders of old the most. It is the corporate industrial nightmare we have created that places value of their money before life and liberty. Only it isn’t the countries or the individual’s money they are concerned with. It is only their own. Entities within our nation able to drive it in a way that really only serves their cause and fattens their pocket books. This is the very founding bedrock of capitalistic corporate greed. The real danger of corporations to large in size. Large enough to challenge whole governments in their own right. Corporations with profit margins that surpass small nations. That have global power that is unlike anything we have ever faced in history before. That can bankrupt the many for the enrichment of the few. Isn’t it strange that since we started all the meddling that the price of a barrel of oil has only more rapidly gone up? That we seem to have no real interest in specific goals that we are certain can be achieved and instead are bent on creating a chaotic mess. How many good honest leaders have left the military because of the lack of sense of what we are doing? Because of what seems to be a plan drawn out several years ago to attack and “conquer” the whole Middle East. Something that is in and of itself a delusional pipe dream. An idea on drugs.
Is it even possible to create a true democracy under force of arms with suppression of their own media? When so many people in a country disagree with what they want? Is it even possible for a whole nation to be confined to “our” agenda without being a mere puppet? How would we fare if we were told to meet some other nations particular criteria? Would we be crippled from making our own unique decisions? From being ourselves? Are we so perfect that we have the right to tell them what they can and cannot do? We want them to think like us, but they are not us. Nor will they ever be us. Can they ever give us what we want when they want what they want? In the end they will have to think for themselves regardless of what we want. There are no guarantees we will ever get what we want even if we stay 1000 years.
I can’t help but think that by our actions we make our enemy’s cause actually seem saner. To them. To the Arab peoples. To many others the world over. They were already fighting each other. It’s their business and really none of ours. The vast majority of them have no interest in what we are doing outside of how we affect them directly. No one there is completely innocent and we have sacrificed our own innocence and become no better then they. In other parts of the world there are innocents dieing who do not have their own representatives who are armed. Yet still, we play right into our enemy’s hands. We play the game by their rules. They thumb their noses at us to invoke a response and we give them exactly the kind of attention they desire. As if we are their puppets. We behave like cattle following a carrot on a string. We ignore the fact that this idea we face has the patience of a saint. That it cares nothing about the moment. As we slowly cripple ourselves by our own lack of self control, with our own arrogant stupidity. So much money has been utterly thrown away. Do you forget that their goal is to financially break us? That this same foolishness is how they defeated the USSR? They are wining and will always be as long as we are killing their people. This is not a war against people; it is a war against a concept and an idea. An idea that is only made more powerful with act's of violence. Terrorism can never defeat terrorism. Think we are the undisputed good guys? Think again. The only distinction between them and us is that they kill their own people. The bottom line is that no one who gets involved walks away with clean hands. You think our enemy is any different then us? That most don’t only die because of the loss of those they cared about to their cause? They are a people who have fought blood feuds for generations. Why have we allowed ourselves to be sucked in?
One does not even need to even watch the media to form an opinion. Many of the fundamentals of war have been the same for 10,000 years. It will never be different. In that history, mercenaries have always been the worst of the worst. Is it startling that we have so many mercenaries there and have been hiding that fact from the very beginning? I was hardly surprised by the more recent events over the whole mercenaries scandal. The same things that are happening now have always happened. The media never had anything to do with why I think what I think. I often tend to prefer a more independent media anyways. Too often mainstream media does a poor job.
The day we left Afghanistan and set food in Iraq is the day I lost total faith in our leadership. It became obvious then that we were being manipulated and completely lied to. The fact that all the reasons we went in proved to be false was just icing on the cake, I already suspected it was total wash. Truthfully, I had grave concern from the very beginning. The very instant we declared “War on Terror”. Instead of a War on “Al-qaeda”, “The middle east”, “Iraq”, “Afghanistan”, “Islamic Extremism”. Take your pick. Instead of a more precise declaration of war. We declare war on a subjective idea. Who chooses what the term terrorist is defined as? Who decides when someone goes from a nuisance or criminal to a terrorist? When can a war on an idea ever end? Will it ever end? What would be someone’s motive for declaring a war on a subjective noun? Can terror even be defeated? Can fear be defeated? One definition of terror is: feelings of distress brought on by impending danger. Declaring a “War on Terror” comes dangerously close to declaring war on “Everyone who disagrees with us”. Which is not democracy. Such ideals are the works of fascism. It makes me realize many people don’t even understand what democracy is. Which puts us at great risk of losing that which we fail to even recognize. When we don’t even stand up for what is so obviously wrong because we fail to even recognize how or why it is wrong. Many people think this country is on the edge of collapse. There are some that talk of our own civil war. I think we are dangerously close to an abyss. I wonder at the motivations of those who so recklessly push us ever closer to the edge. For reasons that seem uncertain. This is a war that from the very beginning was unlike any other war I know of in all of history. Which gives me grave concerns as to its true objectives and intent. You cannot declare an actual war on “Terror”. How can one defeat a word? It’s not a place, an objective, a people, a nation, or an organization. Nor is it just a code name for a list of finite definitive objectives. You might as well declare a “War on People”. Or call it “Wa er afrid sa wa keel oh”.
I wish we could get more media coverage directly from the mouths of people living in that part of the world. The fact that we don’t. Well that speaks volumes. Of course I fear that if they did. They would be hand picked according to the agenda that was being pushed. Rather then chosen at random to represent the truth or how people feel. I have read some of the Middle East’s media and that speaks volumes as well. As far as I am concerned, most people in the military. They are the ones who have been brainwashed. They have been trained to think what is desired of them. To not think outside the box. Only they don’t know it. Denial is a powerful thing.
It isn’t my fault that members of our military enlisted at a time in history where soldiers are getting the shaft. That they have to fight for every scrap they get. That is just more evidence of how far we have fallen. People don’t even need to be in the armed forces to know that it’s happening. I may have at one point agreed people should still support our troops regardless of how misguided and miss directed our agendas seem, but I don’t anymore. They made the bed they are laying in. At some point people in the right places need to put their foot down and say no more. If enough of our armed forces did that and got the American people involved. I can’t imagine they could do anything to them for standing up for what they believe in. They can follow and they can die and be maimed. But they can’t stand up and take the insults of their peers that don’t agree with them? Well, I say better to die in jail then violate the Geneva Convention or habeas corpus. Habeas corpus has been around for centuries and now we disgrace our ancestors by suddenly forgetting all that they taught us? Have we forgotten why our intelligence agencies were set up as they were as checks and balances of each other? Suddenly that doesn’t matter anymore?
A while back I ran across a good example of what we are doing as a nation. A good example of how foolish we are in our policy and practices.
Economics professors have a standard game they use to demonstrate how apparently rational decisions can create a disastrous result. They call it a 'dollar auction.' The rules are simple. The professor offers a dollar for sale to the highest bidder, with only one wrinkle: the second-highest bidder has to pay up on their losing bid as well. Several students almost always get sucked in. The first bids a penny, looking to make 99 cents. The second bids 2 cents, the third 3 cents, and so on, each feeling they have a chance at something good on the cheap. The early stages are fun, and the bidders wonder what possessed the professor to be willing to lose some money.
The problem surfaces when the bidders get up close to a dollar. After 99 cents the last vestige of profitability disappears, but the bidding continues between the two highest players. They now realize that they stand to lose no matter what, but that they can still buffer their losses by winning the dollar. They just have to outlast the other player. Following this strategy, the two hapless students usually run the bid up several dollars, turning the apparent shot at easy money into a ghastly battle of spiraling disaster.
Theoretically, there is no stable outcome once the dynamic gets going. The only clear limit is the exhaustion of one of the player's total funds. In the classroom, the auction generally ends with the grudging decision of one player to 'irrationally' accept the larger loss and get out of the terrible spiral. Economists call the dollar auction pattern an irrational escalation of commitment. We might also call it the war in Iraq."
This may be the best explanation of where Bush & Co. are in terms of their Iraq war policy. Bush is desperately trying to keep the game going and hand it off to the next president.
This example works on so many levels in so many ways. An over abundant pride that refused to accept ones mistakes hoping to accept the lesser defeat and ignore the only slightly greater. It is this, which destroyed Russia.
Terrorism has always been around. It will always be around. It covers the entire globe. Terrorism is crime. There really is little distinction. Only what is a crime should always be determined by ones peers and not by some elected official. In some ways, it is every person’s right to be a terrorist, “To die for what they believe in”. It is this fact that gives us all freedom. It is a freedom we can only lose by giving up. By failing to see that we can never lose it unless we give it away. That it is only truly in our hearts. All it takes is the belief that one is free. A nation can never lose its freedom to a ragtag bunch of criminals. We are more of a danger to ourselves then they are to us. I can’t see how some people think that terrorists are more of a threat now then they have ever been. The only real threat they pose is with nuclear weapons. That we believe that other populations are more reckless with there use is a dangerous line to tread. It is something that can be debated, but never really proven. The only real difference between now and in history past is we have leadership bent on fear mongering and spreading confusion and lies. Leadership that places value on human being’s based upon who they are and exactly what they stand for. Rather then seeing all humans as being of equal value, regardless of their nationality. Leaders that see nothing wrong with striping terrorist’s basic human rights. The most important of which is a trial by a jury of their peers. A fact that leaves extremely dangerous loopholes in our policies and doctrines. Be thankful that these terrorists we fight kill their own people and are so reckless in their actions. It is this that is their greatest mistake.
We lost utterly that very day that we lost our way and violated others rights. The day that we changed laws in our own country when we already had all the tools we needed. Laws that we had no business changing. When we abandoned the high moral ground. We should never forget that should our government utterly fail us then those who stand up against it would be dubbed terrorists.
