Why Dating Sucks for Average Guys

[lnlflwr]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?
The majority of men are average or below, there's no plethora of Greek Gods roaming around, it's probably a very similar amount of males and females who reach that level of attractiveness. I don't understand this argumentation at all, why would all these man be available to an average or below average woman? Same way a Instagram model might not be available to you guys.

There is evidence that this does indeed happen and that it has been quite a persistent dynamic. See for instance:

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]https:[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]//psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success[/font]

 

"[font=merriweather, serif]Once upon a time, 4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture, something very strange happened to human reproduction. Across the globe, for every 17 women who were reproducing, passing on genes that are still around today—only one man did the same.[/font]

[font=merriweather, serif]"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males. They were there, so what were they doing?" asks Melissa Wilson Sayres, a computational biologist at Arizona State University, and a member of a group of scientists who uncovered this moment in prehistory by analyzing modern genes."[/font]

Also see:

https://www.yourtango.com/2016285828/women-find-80-percent-men-unattractive-says-crazy-study

"[font=Lato, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you look at the gray line, you can see that women rate a whopping 80 percent of men as worse-looking than medium. That's pretty harsh, ladies."
[/font]

The end result of all this is a smaller percentage of men tend to have a lot of success and a much bigger portion struggle. It's just getting really difficult to deny this happens.

Also, from my personal experience on Tinder, yes girls have insanely high standards. Oh and there are stats to back this up:

https://www.cnet.com/news/tinder-plus-men-women-swiping/

"After a 2014 interview with Tinder CEO Sean Rad, the New York Times reported that men swiped right, or "liked", 46 percent of the time while women did so to 14 percent of profiles. Because men make up roughly 60 percent of Tinder's 50 million users, there are a lot less "likes" shared between the larger group of users."

I just don't get why there is this determination not to see what Mgill is talking about here, not saying you have to agree with him on everything.

I'm sorry but dating app data doesn't show much other than what happens in dating apps. It's not an accurate representation of the world or human relationships. The link to OKCupid's website wasn't working either, so I don't know what those numbers truly mean without reading the methodology of the study. It might mean that women are only willing to pursue the top, but that might also be due to what Ardour mentioned, about women not pursuing guys in general, just waiting for them to make the move.

The other study is very inconclusive and we might have better information in the future, but I can't just accept that this is or always was the case. If it was, we wouldn't have the population we have today. Also, just a fun fact, it reminded me of the Gengis Khan thing where they found 1 in 200 living males are directly related to him.

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Women self-sabotage too but it doesn't seem to prevent them from dating.

We just have different life experience. Women go through the first half of their lives with an abundance mindset as most of them have had men show up for them.  Hence, they are pickier and slower to invest. Even when the attention is demeaning they're at least aware the opposite sex finds them attractive (basic sexual validation). 

A lot of men go through life like starving animals  latching on to the nearest source of attention; crushing on any women who's nice to them or just sees them platonically, or if they get a chance, ruining things by getting attached too early.

Many guys in their 20s  would have to go through a ridiculous number of rejections to get one date.

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging, talking to me... But why now?  Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's  as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

I read your post earlier today and really resonated with a portion of it, but seems like you edited it out now. :[

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No I disagree, whilst I think Tinder may yield somewhat harsher results for men then real life dating might, I still think it is very telling. Women are simply much more selective when it comes to sexual selection, it's just silly to pretend otherwise and notice that not one person who disagrees with Mgill has actually provided any evidence to back their disagreement whilst the dating app data does support what he's saying to an extent.

I actually think the Tinder data is quite interesting because it shows you the reality of what people are looking for. People often won't be truthful about their height, weight, age, racial, financial preferences when asked because they think it can make them look bad but they don't have to worry about that when swiping on Tinder.

---

Of course women are more selective, childbirth uses up a ton of resources, whatever males put inside one they can put inside 50 more by the end of the month without worrying about his health or future, we've evolved in those terms. But, to use dating apps data as some kind of "proof" that women despise average or below looking guys is ridiculous. It's like going to porn hub's statistics to figure out how many gay people are in the world, it's just a correlation but it doesn't mean there's dependence on the variables. 
People are usually blunt online, going on rude, because they are not having the human experience. That doesn't mean they wouldn't click with someone who doesn't fit all of their preferences lookwise, it just means they spend money and time on a stupid app so they can find the perfect person that looks super hot to them. Why bother with less when you're paying for a catalogue of faces like you're choosing a burger in a menu? 
The dating app data doesn't support much, because it's a very complex issue to process in simple terms which is probably why it's so hard to disprove it as well.

 

[mgill]

"From my observations, mgill seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not, but from what I've seen"

you are completely wrong here. in fact, if anything i have been told i am too nice. none of what i say here is ever repeated IRL as it makes no sense to vent to women i am attracted to. having experienced very good success in every other aspect of life aside from this one points conclusively to my lack of height, hair & looks as the root cause of my issues in this area. as far as my former partner, she was the only one i have ever dated as all of my attempts before & after her have resulted in exactly zero interest.

btw,ardour-i have being just as completely ignored the past 8+ years since my relationship ended as i was before i met my former partner. the difference is that now i understand the cause of it so am no longer so confused and frustrated by the total lack of success as it is due to my inferior genetic quality and there is nothing i can do to improve that in the least.

 

[Xpendable]

Online dating just doesn`t make people pretend to be nice. It shows how they really are.

 

[ardour]

Of course women are more selective, childbirth uses up a ton of resources, whatever males put inside one they can put inside 50 more by the end of the month without worrying about his health or future, we've evolved in those terms. But, to use dating apps data as some kind of "proof" that women despise average or below looking guys is ridiculous.

Whether women are hostile to average men is irrelevant to whether they’re willing to make any effort with them.

You're referring to women having higher minimum standards as a necessity. The problem is they appear to be focusing more and more on a smaller percentage of men nearer the top. Not such a factor in a small town or pre-internet social circle, but in a big city where women can create an account and be flooded with hundreds of messages within the day? Why would they slum it with average men they meet in everyday situations when they get the attention of someone better looking/more desirable?

People with Aardra’s politics say things like “we will decide how and when you can approach us” Which isn't helpful.

 

[lnlflwr]

Sorry, Aardra?

Online dating certainly shows a version of who they are, but I doubt anyone shows their true self often online. Although, it's definitely easier to ignore or dismiss unwanted attention.

I don't know how to help you guys. If there's no way to help and it's all decided by genetics, I don't see the point in discussing it.
Edit: I understand it could just be a space to vent and I apologize for maybe intensifying your frustration, if that is the case.

 

[kaetic]

Of course women are more selective, childbirth uses up a ton of resources, whatever males put inside one they can put inside 50 more by the end of the month without worrying about his health or future, we've evolved in those terms. But, to use dating apps data as some kind of "proof" that women despise average or below looking guys is ridiculous.

Whether women are hostile to average men is irrelevant to whether they’re willing to make any effort with them.

You're  referring to women having higher minimum standards as a necessity. The problem is  they appear to be focusing more and more on a smaller percentage of men nearer the top.  Not such a factor in a small town or pre-internet social circle, but in a big city where women can create an account and be flooded with hundreds of messages within the day? Why would they slum it with average men they meet  in everyday situations when they get the attention of someone better looking/more desirable?

People with  Aardra’s politics say things  like  “we will decide how and when you can approach us” Which isn't helpful.

Wouldn't such a situation work the exact same way for men though? Why date such a range of unattractive women when they could just keep hooking up with the more attractive ones? I will give you that maybe it doesn't work the same way in a small town... I live in a small town and people basically take what they can get (is how it appears to me, anyway).
Is the problem maybe... that it DOES work exactly the same way for men. Except, for men the main motivation is to get laid so most of them aren't as picky. But for the guys looking for more than just a hookup, like you and mgill... you're finding that the women you're attracted to are possibly out of reach... whether it's because they have super high standards (which is possible, women are more selective in general... there are definitely women out there that are EXTREMELY so) or because you do (which is also possible, I don't know you) or both. 

Because if that's what you're saying... I don't disagree.

 

[mgill]

"Why date such a range of unattractive women when they could just keep hooking up with the more attractive ones? I will give you that maybe it doesn't work the same way in a small town... I live in a small town and people basically take what they can get (is how it appears to me, anyway)."

this is a common misconception as there is a huge dichotomy between how things work for men & women in dating. OLD is a great example of this as average & even below average women are lierally inundated with more messages then they can handle while average & below average men get very little to none. there are many examples of people (both men & women) using fake profiles which prove that this is true. also, living in a small town is no longer a limiting barrier since everyone has online access and can interact with people from anywhere on earth.

it's not a matter of a small percentage of women who are extremely selective but instead they are the rule rather than the exception. when a women laments that she cannot find a partner, most of the time she means she cannot find a top 20% male willing to be her partner. they may sleep with her but since they live a life of such abundance, very few are ever willing to settle down-and if they do it will be with a top tier female on their own looks level or greater. perhaps the confusion comes in becasue women do not understand that these top men may be willing to have a one night stand with women of a large range of SMV but this is not an indication of who they are looking for to settle down with. also, once a women has had a taste of top tier men, they are almost never willing to be content with lesser males, even those on their own looks level.

as far as my own standards, as i have repeated ad nauseum i would be extremely grateful if i had a partner who was my looksmatch. i don't see only being interested in women who are fit & feminine as having high standards. the women whom i am attracted to are beyond my reach because all of them, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are looking for the same top 20% men and there are only so many to go around.

 

[ardour]

Of course women are more selective, childbirth uses up a ton of resources, whatever males put inside one they can put inside 50 more by the end of the month without worrying about his health or future, we've evolved in those terms. But, to use dating apps data as some kind of "proof" that women despise average or below looking guys is ridiculous.

Whether women are hostile to average men is irrelevant to whether they’re willing to make any effort with them.

You're  referring to women having higher minimum standards as a necessity. The problem is  they appear to be focusing more and more on a smaller percentage of men nearer the top.  Not such a factor in a small town or pre-internet social circle, but in a big city where women can create an account and be flooded with hundreds of messages within the day? Why would they slum it with average men they meet  in everyday situations when they get the attention of someone better looking/more desirable?

People with  Aardra’s politics say things  like  “we will decide how and when you can approach us” Which isn't helpful.

Wouldn't such a situation work the exact same way for men though? Why date such a range of unattractive women when they could just keep hooking up with the more attractive ones? I will give you that maybe it doesn't work the same way in a small town... I live in a small town and people basically take what they can get (is how it appears to me, anyway).
Is the problem maybe... that it DOES work exactly the same way for men. Except, for men the main motivation is to get laid so most of them aren't as picky. But for the guys looking for more than just a hookup, like you and mgill... you're finding that the women you're attracted to are possibly out of reach... whether it's because they have super high standards (which is possible, women are more selective in general... there are definitely women out there that are EXTREMELY so) or because you do (which is also possible, I don't know you) or both. 

Because if that's what you're saying... I don't disagree.

 
It works that way for the small percentage of men women consider attractive.

 

[mgill]

"It works that way for the small percentage of men women consider attractive. "

+1

 

[kaetic]

It works that way for the small percentage of men women (that I'm attracted to) consider attractive.

I think that's an important distinction... are you talking about ALL women or just the category of women that you believe are dateable?

 

[Finished]

it's not a matter of a small percentage of women who are extremely selective but instead they are the rule rather than the exception. when a women laments that she cannot find a partner, most of the time she means she cannot find a top 20% male willing to be her partner.  they may sleep with her but since they live a life of such abundance, very few are ever willing to settle down-and if they do it will be with a top tier female on their own looks level or greater. 

perhaps the confusion comes in becasue women do not understand that these top men may be willing to have a one night stand with women of a large range of SMV but this is not an indication of who they are looking for to settle down with. also, once a women has had a taste of top tier men, they are almost never willing to be content with lesser males, even those on their own looks level.

This is too what I realized after doing about a year's worth of online dating tests using many fake accounts of good looking ahole broke guys, nice $100k/year responsible average looking guys, and average looking tall guys. Tall guy and good looking guy profiles got lots of unsolicited responses. None of the words in the bios mattered. I even put insulting things in the summaries as a test. My inbox was constantly full. But, when I used my real pictures doing fun activities with my real height, real profile, and thoughtful summaries I got zero responses even after I sent out many messages to adds. I actually contacted the website because I thought something was technically wrong. They replied that everything was fine. Then I received a response from a woman saying she thought I was funny. But, wasn't interested in dating me.

as far as my own standards, as i have repeated ad nauseum i would be extremely grateful if i had a partner who was my looksmatch.  i don't see only being interested in women who are fit & feminine as having high standards.  the women whom i am attracted to are beyond my reach because all of them, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are looking for the same top 20% men and there are only so many to go around.

Someone a short time ago asked me how I rated myself out of 10. I said I am a 5. Then she asked what I was seeking. I said a 5 to 7. She said since I wasn't getting any responses maybe I was overrating myself. Maybe I'm actually a 4 and I should be trying to get a 3 to 4. I don't think the top 20% men are interested in the 3 to 4's because there are plenty of 5's - 8's. So, maybe you are actually overrating yourself too? In reality you are a 4 and should be looking for a 3 - 4. Have you ever thought about that?

 

[mgill]

it's not a matter of a small percentage of women who are extremely selective but instead they are the rule rather than the exception. when a women laments that she cannot find a partner, most of the time she means she cannot find a top 20% male willing to be her partner.  they may sleep with her but since they live a life of such abundance, very few are ever willing to settle down-and if they do it will be with a top tier female on their own looks level or greater. 

perhaps the confusion comes in becasue women do not understand that these top men may be willing to have a one night stand with women of a large range of SMV but this is not an indication of who they are looking for to settle down with. also, once a women has had a taste of top tier men, they are almost never willing to be content with lesser males, even those on their own looks level.

This is too what I realized after doing about a year's worth of online dating tests using many fake accounts of good looking ahole broke guys, nice $100k/year responsible average looking guys, and average looking tall guys. Tall guy and good looking guy profiles got lots of unsolicited responses. None of the words in the bios mattered. I even put insulting things in the summaries as a test. My inbox was constantly full. But, when I used my real pictures doing fun activities with my real height, real profile, and thoughtful summaries I got zero responses even after I sent out many messages to adds. I actually contacted the website because I thought something was technically wrong. They replied that everything was fine. Then I received a response from a woman saying she thought I was funny. But, wasn't interested in dating me.

as far as my own standards, as i have repeated ad nauseum i would be extremely grateful if i had a partner who was my looksmatch.  i don't see only being interested in women who are fit & feminine as having high standards.  the women whom i am attracted to are beyond my reach because all of them, regardless of their own attractiveness level, are looking for the same top 20% men and there are only so many to go around.

Someone a short time ago asked me how I rated myself out of 10. I said I am a 5. Then she asked what I was seeking. I said a 5 to 7. She said since I wasn't getting any responses maybe I was overrating myself. Maybe I'm actually a 4 and I should be trying to get a 3 to 4. I don't think the top 20% men are interested in the 3 to 4's because there are plenty of 5's - 8's. So, maybe you are actually overrating yourself too? In reality you are a 4 and should be looking for a 3 - 4. Have you ever thought about that?

it depends on how you look at it. the top 20% of men may not be interested in dating average or below average women but many will sleep with them if they are unable to find anyone better at the time.  

imo, the whole 1-10 scale is just a cope.  in reality it's much closer to a 1-5 scale where 1=ugly 2=below average 3=average 4=above average 5=extremely attractive.  in my case i would be rated a 2 or 1 by most women as other than having a great body (which women don't care about unless a man also has the height & face), everything else about me physically is below average at best.

on the other hand, much of a women's attractiveness level is based on her body fitness so a facially average or below average women (2 or 3) can move to a 4 or even a 5 if she gets in great shape. either way though, it all comes down to the fact that none of the women i am attracted to are ever attracted to me as they always have far better options than what i can offer them.  nothing i can do about that as there is no gym for height or face.

 

[lnlflwr]

Wish I could see pictures of you guys. I feel like unless you have some kind of facial deformity or something, almost no one is ugly. I know it's not the point, just throwing it out there.

 

[ardour]

It works that way for the small percentage of men women (that I'm attracted to) consider attractive.

I think that's an important distinction... are you talking about ALL women or just the category of women that you believe are dateable?

 
Men find more women attractive than women find men. Larger numbers of women being attracted to smaller numbers of men is the basis for that 80/20 rule meme. And while 80/20 is an extreme exaggeration, things are changing to the point where it might not be in the not-so-distant future. Polyamorous relationships for example - usually involving two women with one guy - seem to be becoming  more common. The fact there are so many male adult virgins than female virgins is fairly conclusive of more men being "undateable."

 

[AnonymousMe]

Wish I could see pictures of you guys. I feel like unless you have some kind of facial deformity or something, almost no one is ugly. I know it's not the point, just throwing it out there.

https://www.mediafire.com/view/2ly7bj64abql55b/20190218_185713.jpg/file#
How do I look?

EDIT: By the way, if anyone thinks I'm uglier than you, I hope that's a good confidence booster.

 

[lnlflwr]

Wish I could see pictures of you guys. I feel like unless you have some kind of facial deformity or something, almost no one is ugly. I know it's not the point, just throwing it out there.

https://www.mediafire.com/view/2ly7bj64abql55b/20190218_185713.jpg/file#
How do I look?

EDIT: By the way, if anyone thinks I'm uglier than you, I hope that's a good confidence booster. 

oh wow, someone actually took the bait! My curiosity was killing me, ngl.

You look nice and kinda badass, I'd like to see one with longer beard. You also look like you could beat the honeysuckle out of anyone who called you ugly, very bad boy vibes in that picture. haha

 

[AnonymousMe]

oh wow, someone actually took the bait! My curiosity was killing me, ngl.

You look nice and kinda badass, I'd like to see one with longer beard. You also look like you could beat the honeysuckle out of anyone who called you ugly, very bad boy vibes in that picture. haha

Well, I'm definitely nice, but not badass.  I'm pretty chill in everything, if anyone insults me, I don't do anything, because it's no different from doing noises with your mouth.
Thanks for the compliments anyway, you already gave me more than what I got on WooPlus (a dating site for fat people, but really is for fat ladies).  -_-

 

[lnlflwr]

oh wow, someone actually took the bait! My curiosity was killing me, ngl.

You look nice and kinda badass, I'd like to see one with longer beard. You also look like you could beat the honeysuckle out of anyone who called you ugly, very bad boy vibes in that picture. haha

Well, I'm definitely nice, but not badass.  I'm pretty chill in everything, if anyone insults me, I don't do anything, because it's no different from doing noises with your mouth.
Thanks for the compliments anyway, you already gave me more than what I got on WooPlus (a dating site for fat people, but really is for fat ladies).  -_-

It's better this way, conflict is most often pointless. It's important to impose boundaries but when someone can't respect them, they're not worth the energy, better to walk away.
What's wrong with the fat ladies? They don't interact much?

 

[AnonymousMe]

What's wrong with the fat ladies? They don't interact much?

The ladies themselves are fine, VERY fine actually.  They're not, like, overweight, sure, they're bigger than your average woman, but they have some nice curves and pretty faces.
As for the lack of interaction, I think it's because there's more guys on the app than gals and many are better at posting photos and looking good, so maybe it's just that I can't compete against the competition.  OR, it might be my profile, I was 100% honest in it, even admitting that I'm interested in poly relationships, and that probably spooked away many women.  Or maybe it was just my face, you did say it emit "nice guy" vibes and everybody knows that nice guys are a BIG turn-off.

 

[lnlflwr]

What's wrong with the fat ladies? They don't interact much?

The ladies themselves are fine, VERY fine actually.  They're not, like, overweight, sure, they're bigger than your average woman, but they have some nice curves and pretty faces.
As for the lack of interaction, I think it's because there's more guys on the app than gals and many are better at posting photos and looking good, so maybe it's just that I can't compete against the competition.  OR, it might be my profile, I was 100% honest in it, even admitting that I'm interested in poly relationships, and that probably spooked away many women.  Or maybe it was just my face, you did say it emit "nice guy" vibes and everybody knows that nice guys are a BIG turn-off.

I said you have badass vibes, actually, and added that you look nice. Maybe try to put only information that would make the ladies want to learn more about you, like not being too literal so they can come up with a question to start a conversation? I don't know, this site is the most social I'm willing to be, I'm sorry if the advice is subpar.