why, why do "nice guys" do this?

[ardour]

Because maybe I don't agree with men taking the chance of being rejected. Maybe I think women should start doing that. I am of course speaking in general, I don't want to hear any examples of a friend of yours or of yourself that has asked a man out, thus risking rejection.

Wait a minute, maybe i misread but aren't you a misanthrope, resigned to human awfulness and set-in-stone gender roles? But now women should ask men out for the sake of fairness.

People don't seem to understand that for a low self-esteem guy being rejected is much more damaging than never trying at all. Also, many women think that there's no big deal in being rejected. Well, if is such a small deal, then why don't they try it, huh ?

The problem is not rejection per se, but being judged as sub human for being male and daring to show interest in a women who, it turned out, didn't feel the same. It's a valid fear, certainly. But any adult should be able to accept that someone they're attracted to might not be attracted to them, and move on.

 

[Triple Bogey]

No, what is wrong with you? Asking a stranger out is also taking a chance at finding someone you can connect with and who knows what might come out of it? And it's not easy to ask a stranger out - so rather than putting someone down for trying or at least think of trying to do it, why not motivate and encourage them instead?

Because maybe I don't agree with men taking the chance of being rejected. Maybe I think women should start doing that. I am of course speaking in general, I don't want to hear any examples of a friend of yours or of yourself that has asked a man out, thus risking rejection.

People don't seem to understand that for a low self-esteem guy being rejected is much more damaging than never trying at all. Also, many women think that there's no big deal in being rejected. Well, if is such a small deal, then why don't they try it, huh ?

And no, this time I am not stereotyping anything, not all people are alike, but many of them, regardless of gender, fit my description.

---

ALG your comments are not helpful. Triple if this situation arises again, take that leap of faith and ask the woman out. What have you got to lose.

No one seems to understand what I mean. Very well then, continue feeding the meat-grinder.

If it's not a big deal, YOU do it.

I have conversations with people on the train or on the bus whenever I choose to. That doesn't mean anything. So giving a guy false hopes is wrong.

If he would have been attractive to women, he could have picked them up in any situation, not necessarily on that bus. He would have been successful in dating online, in dating the girl next door and so on.

Why give false hope ? Because you, the one giving the advice have nothing to loose ?

---

so your saying I should just give up then ?
Since I am so unattractive to women.
I have no chance whatsoever, women who talk to me do it out of pity.

My tactic of waiting for women to approach me hasn't worked for 25 years !
And my tactic of waiting to see some interest before I ask hasn't worked either !
Got to try something different.

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

Wait a minute, maybe i misread but aren't you a misanthrope, resigned to human awfulness and set-in-stone gender roles? But now women should ask men out for the sake of fairness.


The problem is not rejection per se, but being judged as sub human for being male and daring to show an interest in a women who, it turned out, didn't feel the same. It's a valid fear, certainly. But any adult should be able to accept that someone they're attracted to might not be attracted to them, and move on.

Maybe I am. I don't wanna talk further about gender roles, this is a politically correct forum, I'd rather not get suspended again.

By any adult you mean any man, right ?

 

[ardour]

Yeah we have to do the asking, which is fraught with shame and very much a burden. Doesn't change the fact you wouldn't date women you weren't attracted to, or the hypocrisy in suggesting they should for our sake. It's not rational to take rejection any more personally than an admission of lack of interest.

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

so your saying I should just give up then ?
Since I am so unattractive to women.
I have no chance whatsoever, women who talk to me do it out of pity.

My tactic of waiting for women to approach me hasn't worked for 25 years !
And my tactic of waiting to see some interest before I ask hasn't worked either !
Got to try something different.

I am not saying to give up. I am saying what I told to FishSka(or something like that): first deal with the problems that's don't let you be in charge of the situation, proud of yourself and hold your head high an any given time. Those problems may be: how you look (can be corrected by gym), how much money you have (can be corrected by making more money), how many people you get to meet (that self-corrects once the first two issues are corrected) and so on.
If you have severe trouble in getting women and you do not want to upgrade your body and your financial status, 'cause maybe you think people should love you because you're a nice person, then you will be relegated to sucking up to women until one of them will use you as an utility.
As I stated previously, this is how I see things, that doesn't mean all women are like that. But this is the fastest way to get somewhere in this department.

---

Yeah we have to do the asking, which is fraught with shame and very much a burden. Doesn't change the fact you wouldn't date a women you weren't attracted to and the hypocrisy around suggesting they should. It's not rational to take rejection any more personally than an admission that someone simply isn't interested.

Attraction is not rational, I don't see a point in speaking about anything that has to do with feelings in a rationalizing way. You can just rationalize how you will increase your chances of not only not being rejected, but also, being asked out yourself, directly, or indirectly.

There is nothing wrong with showing availability, there is however something wrong with asking. Or, to put it in a different way, you only ask for something when you know it's already yours, asking being only a social formality. You don't ask out a woman who only smiles at you or says hello, or talks about the weather or stuff like that, you ask out the one that can't keep herself away from you when you are in the same place with her (at school, at work etc.)

 

[ardour]

There is nothing wrong with showing availability, there is however something wrong with asking. Or, to put it in a different way, you only ask for something when you know it's already yours, asking being only a social formality. You don't ask out a woman who only smiles at you or says hello, or talks about the weather or stuff like that, you ask out the one that can't keep herself away from you when you are in the same place with her (at school, at work etc.)

Sure unless nothing like that situation ever arises. He can only consider the options available to him, asking a stranger out being one.

A better question is why you feel the need to discourage him. Do you enjoy seeing other men fail?

(admittedly I could be accused of that, but i wouldn't go as far as to mock another guy for showing some courage.. or at least contemplating it)

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

And if those kind of situations don't arise, what then? He can only consider the options available to him, asking a stranger being one. Better question is why you feel the need to discourage him.

Because he doesn't know a thing about karate, but he wants to try fighting black-belts.

You can't go after women if you don't have the necessary arsenal at your disposal. Therefore I will discourage him in hurting himself and I will continue telling him and others to hit the gym, fill their pockets and live their lives, instead of sobbing and hoping someone will be attracted by them being nice and polite.

That doesn't mean you should stop telling him to try, 'cause one day a goddess will find him worthy of attention.

What's weird is that you understand perfectly what I'm saying and you agree with me, but still, you want him to bang his head on a wall, instead of first getting the tools to bring that wall down.

It's good for him to see different opinions, he can analyze for himself and pick what he thinks suits him best.

---

(admittedly I could be accused of that, but i wouldn't go as far as to mock another guy for showing some courage.. or at least contemplating it)

I enjoy seeing other men succeeding. To succeed you have to upgrade and be sought after, not to continue begging.
If you're attractive it shows. You see that in highschool, in college, at work. Women just flock towards you, they treat you nicely, they desire you. If you're not attractive, it shows. No point to describe how. Therefore, you have to upgrade. Not beg. Never beg.
A handsome and financially stable man is like a hunter going to hunt wild boars with an AK. A scrawny and poor man is like a hunter going to the same hunt with only a rock or a stick. It's obvious who's gonna get the boars.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I enjoy seeing other men succeeding. To succeed you have to upgrade and be sought after, not to continue begging.
If you're attractive it shows. You see that in highschool, in college, at work. Women just flock towards you, they treat you nicely, they desire you. If you're not attractive, it shows. No point to describe how. Therefore, you have to upgrade. Not beg. Never beg.
A handsome and financially stable man is like a hunter going to hunt wild boars with an AK. A scrawny and poor man is like a hunter going to the same hunt with only a rock or a stick. It's obvious who's gonna get the boars.

You keep stressing money....Okay, I will admit that it helps to have at least a little bit of extra money, but by no means will having money always get you a girl, whether you are "good looking" or not. For me, I don't really give a fresia about money, as long as I have enough to pay for what I need.

This is, of course, my opinion only. There are lots of gold diggers out there too (both women AND men gold diggers)

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

You keep stressing money....Okay, I will admit that it helps to have at least a little bit of extra money, but by no means will having money always get you a girl, whether you are "good looking" or not. For me, I don't really give a fresia about money, as long as I have enough to pay for what I need.

This is, of course, my opinion only. There are lots of gold diggers out there too (both women AND men gold diggers)

I am definitely not talking about hunting gold diggers. Money is an asset mainly for your own person, not for someone else. Having money gives confidence to oneself and shows reliability to any that might be interested. See what I mean ?
I will not say women want to get paid, that's BS. They don't (at least not the ones I would date), but they do want security.

 

[ardour]

You keep stressing money....Okay, I will admit that it helps to have at least a little bit of extra money, but by no means will having money always get you a girl, whether you are "good looking" or not. For me, I don't really give a fresia about money, as long as I have enough to pay for what I need.

Probably because he's migrated from one of the manosphere or PUA sites, where accepted wisdom tells him cliches like flashing money, being buff, tanned, loud and egotistical will result in women falling at your feet (as opposed to coming across as an utter ass.)

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

=))))) Right. You get them, "tiger"

 

[TheRealCallie]

You keep stressing money....Okay, I will admit that it helps to have at least a little bit of extra money, but by no means will having money always get you a girl, whether you are "good looking" or not. For me, I don't really give a fresia about money, as long as I have enough to pay for what I need.

This is, of course, my opinion only. There are lots of gold diggers out there too (both women AND men gold diggers)

I am definitely not talking about hunting gold diggers. Money is an asset mainly for your own person, not for someone else. Having money gives confidence to oneself and shows reliability to any that might be interested. See what I mean ?
I will not say women want to get paid, that's BS. They don't (at least not the ones I would date), but they do want security.

Thank you for explaining that, it would be easy for someone to misinterpret what you meant.
But, I don't want security either....well, I suppose I could say I don't NEED security, because who wouldn't WANT security. If I'm with you and I'm happy, I can honestly say, I don't care if we live in a box on the street. Many people don't understand that, but it's the truth. Material objects, whether it means a house, jewelry, or whatever really mean nothing to me.
There's only one house that holds a lot of importance to me and it's not even mine.

---

Probably because he's migrated from one of the manosphere or PUA sites

THANK YOU, for the life of me I couldn't remember that acronym this morning. lol

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

Sorry, I don't deal in dreams and statements, I deal in reality and hard facts. Stating you are different doesn't change my opinion, it's only a statement, I don't know you, I am assuming you would not date an ugly man who can't even buy his own glass of beer if he would go out with you. You may, of course contradict me. Nice words and dreams don't cost a thing.
As for assumptions about me, where I come from or what I'm doing... yeah, it's not nice what I'm saying, people don't want to hear about it, but these things have to be expressed so as the ones who need any advice will have more to choose from.

Of course women will not fall at you're feet if you are handsome and financially stable, that would be illogical, wouldn't it ? :club:

To answer the next question: tiger, at the moment I have other issues on my mind, not women. I will not tell you about my situation 'cause it's personal. I will however tell you that when I was buff and displayed financial stability, that was what was happening. And by displaying I don't mean parading with it, I mean it just showed on me. At that point my attitude was also different - self-confident and reliable. That attitude still remained with me, in some measure, even though I'm not as I was back then anymore. I don't try faking anything, things either are, or they aren't. People have the wrong idea you have to fake stuff. No, you don't, you either have them, or get them, or you don't. I also find the tactic of agreeing with women in the hopes you will talk and maybe find somehow how to weasel a way into their bed not only generally not working, but also repulsive. So I guess I'm not a PUA. The tactic of attacking what you might perceive as a competitor for status or whatnot is demeaning to say the least. It usually stems out of frustration and the lack of better weapons.

 

[ardour]

well, too late now I see but I deleted the last sentence, being as it was a bit confrontational.

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

Yeah, let's just confront ideas, not people.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Sorry, I don't deal in dreams and statements, I deal in reality and hard facts. Stating you are different doesn't change my opinion, it's only a statement, I don't know you, I am assuming you would not date an ugly man who can't even buy his own glass of beer if he would go out with you. You may, of course contradict me. Nice words and dreams don't cost a thing.
As for assumptions about me, where I come from or what I'm doing... yeah, it's not nice what I'm saying, people don't want to hear about it, but these things have to be expressed so as the ones who need any advice will have more to choose from.

Of course women will not fall at you're feet if you are handsome and financially stable, that would be illogical, wouldn't it ? :club:

Dreams? No, what I say is based on experience and truth. I don't give a flying fresia about money, but because you don't know me, I can understand why you would have your doubts. A lot of people are materialistic and want money or someone that can do things for you and there's nothing wrong with that, but that's not me. All I'm saying is that there are people, like me, out there where that isn't a concern.
Also, just because one way works for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. I know you just now stated that it's just advice so people can have more to choose from, but you previously did not, which is likely why you are getting honeysuckle from people. lol

Not saying I would turn down handsome and financially stable (certainly not fall at his feet, though). BUT, if said person is a pompous ass, as well, he can take his looks and stableness and fresia off :club:

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

I'm getting honeysuckle from people 'cause what I say is not nice. How I say this things makes humans sound so... non-human, so unevolved. And people hate that.
"Falling at his feet" is a figure of speech, don't take it literally.
Between a nice guy and a nice guy with looks and money the choice is obvious.

 

[kamya]

People don't like what you're saying because you sound bitter as fresia. Also you're completely wrong.

Nice guy vs nice guy with looks and money? It would be obvious if men were robots and there was a "nice guy" setting making every single guy exactly the same. You are generalizing genders so much that you actually think you can turn attraction into a simple math equation. It's not always that simple. It doesn't work. Not online, or in the real world.

Your posts aren't blunt, they are just simple minded. That is why you're getting honeysuckle from others.

 

[AnotherLonelyGuy]

Not "open-minded" you say ? GOOD !

---

Of course I'm wrong, I'm using logic, common sense and previous experience of me and others, instead of dreams & honeysuckle. So how could I not be wrong ? Of course I'm wrong

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not "open-minded" you say ? GOOD !

---

Of course I'm wrong, I'm using logic, common sense and previous experience of me and others, instead of dreams & honeysuckle. So how could I not be wrong ? Of course I'm wrong

---

I hope you aren't referring to me with that "dreams & honeysuckle" statement. Logic and common sense....really? *shakes head*