Worst experience with loneliness in your life?

[IgnoredOne]

Darn.....you can't be that ugly....sorry to hear about all that though. But yeah, I've been called ugly, fat, short, you name it.

Although, I notice there's quite a few Asians on here who grew up in the West who are facing social/loneliness problems. Is it because it's a 'race' thing?

We are often raised in a different culture with different values from most typical Western values. On top of that, we do often face a good deal of real racism that is pretty endemic.

Typically, Asians are brought up with the belief that education and achievement in extremely important. Its a tough life, but one that is very easy to understand in many ways - good things happen to people who work hard. In China, for example, if someone had excellent grades, he could expect to go to one of the best universities; having a good university was an automatic expectation to a good job and respect; having a good job and a house was an automatic expectation to eventually being able to marry(there's little to no stigma for women against 'marrying for money', really and on the converse, 'marrying well' is highly esteemed), etc.

Someone who couldn't do well might very well fail in life, but he knew exactly /why/ he failed. He failed because he couldn't pass the college entrance exam, he failed because he didn't bother to save, etc.

Everything makes sense. There are fewer guessing games, for lack of a better word. Furthermore, we are expected to be quiet and for lack of a better word, conformist. Our achievements will speak for ourselves: in As gained, GPA, college, or other identifiers. We shouldn't have to posture, or peacock, or showcase.

When we're raised in that kind of a household, though, the normal Western society, everything is confusing despite the fact that we have been superficially told the same things about good things happening to people who work hard. But what the West sees as 'work' or 'effort' is really quite different. People get jobs for reasons of who they know; there's no longer any guidebook on how to get the girl; hell, people PUT US DOWN for studying and being intelligent; everything feels unknown, people don't like us, and all we know is that we seem to fail despite our best efforts and along the way, people are telling us that we're wrong for this reason or that reason.

Its pretty demoralizing.

 

[Ak5]

IgnoredOne does make a point. In the U.S. its more about how we act and how we are, your personality.

 

[synapse]

The loneliest I have ever been I was 13 and my dad beat the honeysuckle out of me for no reason. My mom did nothing about it and my siblings acted like nothing happened. He also kicked my dog several times. I ran and hid in a tree for hours; there was nowhere to go. I have never never felt that alone, and have felt alone in the world after that.

 

[Luna]

Yeah so I didn't read all the responses to the last post I made, but after glancing at it a lot of it seems to be the kind of thing I was talking about - people telling me I'm 20 and to move on, as if it's my fault for dwelling on the past and as if it's merely will power that will make me stop doing that. That really just goes against everything my therapist has been telling me, and so I don't even want to read it - I'm already doing a cognitive-behaviour program that seems to be working for me based on different principles. So I think I'll just leave this board alone then and listen to my doc. Maybe it's different if you have a diagnosable psychological problem like I do. But anyway, I get the feeling that my honesty on this board has just caused me to feel worse. Bye.

I'm sorry it makes you feel worse but honestly - no one is trying to do so.
This is a public forum that anyone with internet can access - and you should not expect that everyone else is going to think, act, say what you want...because we are not you. We are all different.
All I can say is that I hope that you are able to work out your problems.

Please note, my post isn't directed "just at you" - but also anyone else that has taken offense on these forums along the same lines.

There is no need to take offense...I'm sure most of us - if not all, stumbled onto this forum out of loneliness. We all have something in common.

 

[beans]

Darn.....you can't be that ugly....sorry to hear about all that though. But yeah, I've been called ugly, fat, short, you name it.

Although, I notice there's quite a few Asians on here who grew up in the West who are facing social/loneliness problems. Is it because it's a 'race' thing?

We are often raised in a different culture with different values from most typical Western values. On top of that, we do often face a good deal of real racism that is pretty endemic.

Typically, Asians are brought up with the belief that education and achievement in extremely important. Its a tough life, but one that is very easy to understand in many ways - good things happen to people who work hard. In China, for example, if someone had excellent grades, he could expect to go to one of the best universities; having a good university was an automatic expectation to a good job and respect; having a good job and a house was an automatic expectation to eventually being able to marry(there's little to no stigma for women against 'marrying for money', really and on the converse, 'marrying well' is highly esteemed), etc.

Someone who couldn't do well might very well fail in life, but he knew exactly /why/ he failed. He failed because he couldn't pass the college entrance exam, he failed because he didn't bother to save, etc.

Everything makes sense. There are fewer guessing games, for lack of a better word. Furthermore, we are expected to be quiet and for lack of a better word, conformist. Our achievements will speak for ourselves: in As gained, GPA, college, or other identifiers. We shouldn't have to posture, or peacock, or showcase.

When we're raised in that kind of a household, though, the normal Western society, everything is confusing despite the fact that we have been superficially told the same things about good things happening to people who work hard. But what the West sees as 'work' or 'effort' is really quite different. People get jobs for reasons of who they know; there's no longer any guidebook on how to get the girl; hell, people PUT US DOWN for studying and being intelligent; everything feels unknown, people don't like us, and all we know is that we seem to fail despite our best efforts and along the way, people are telling us that we're wrong for this reason or that reason.

Its pretty demoralizing.

Actually, it depends. First of all, I don't know but I don't think lazy people are welcomed anywhere in the world. But I experienced both of this. In high school, I wasn't interested in studies and did rather poorly and had no friends. I was in the top class but I was the last student. The rest of my friends did not respect me. They only respect you if you study hard and get good grades. Then when I was in college, I suddenly became very hardworking - (because then I had to pay for my own tuition fees, I was so scared of failing). So I was always the one who takes notes, finish my assignments on time etc and I notice that nobody really wanted to be my friend or liked me much because I was too serious about studies. Most of them had rich parents to pay for their fees so basically they were just f-cking around.


And about people who get jobs based on who they know - it is a worldwide problem. It happens in Asian countries too. I mean, 75% of the jobs out there are usually not advertised offline and online. You need to take the initiative to connect with people in the field you are working, network with them etc because people are hiring based on knowing somebody that knows somebody etc etc.

---

IgnoredOne does make a point. In the U.S. its more about how we act and how we are, your personality.

Hmm I think its more of the end product. You may have dropped out of school, but people want to know you if you are successful, made a name for yourself, and you have a big fat account.

Now reverse the picture.

Even if you went to Harvard, got your PhD but you don't earn well, you're not making much out of your life, nobody wants to know you.

You may have the worst personality, boring as hell but if you have the wealth and fame like Mark Zuckerberg, you are well respected.

It's not really all about personality sometimes.

 

[allanh]

I agree with IgnoredOne.... In many Asian countries, as long as you have reasonable look and not be a completely social outcast, your social status will get you your desired girls easily.

In western countries, there is a lot more importance placed on "PUA" skills (many may call it different names, but that's the way I see it), which a lot of Asians (including me) lack because we have had no practice.

 

[IgnoredOne]

And about people who get jobs based on who they know - it is a worldwide problem. It happens in Asian countries too. I mean, 75% of the jobs out there are usually not advertised offline and online. You need to take the initiative to connect with people in the field you are working, network with them etc because people are hiring based on knowing somebody that knows somebody etc etc.

To a limited extent, but trust me, your university degree means a LOT more in most Asian countries. The odds of having no job with a good university is like finding diamond hen teeth at times.

And the west has a concept of geeks, and nerds; you really don't have that in Asia, or nearly as much. The pressure of respect and bullying falls upon people who don't do well in school, which is HARSH and sometimes still involves physical punishment, so people on the top of the class get a lot of respect.

I refer specifically to China, Korean and Japan, mind you - which are usually where the people with difficulties come from. They have that culture.

 

[beans]

And about people who get jobs based on who they know - it is a worldwide problem. It happens in Asian countries too. I mean, 75% of the jobs out there are usually not advertised offline and online. You need to take the initiative to connect with people in the field you are working, network with them etc because people are hiring based on knowing somebody that knows somebody etc etc.

To a limited extent, but trust me, your university degree means a LOT more in most Asian countries. The odds of having no job with a good university is like finding diamond hen teeth at times.

And the west has a concept of geeks, and nerds; you really don't have that in Asia, or nearly as much. The pressure of respect and bullying falls upon people who don't do well in school, which is HARSH and sometimes still involves physical punishment, so people on the top of the class get a lot of respect.

I refer specifically to China, Korean and Japan, mind you - which are usually where the people with difficulties come from. They have that culture.

It is bad like that in any Asian country that has Chinese people in it e.g Singapore etc

Yes, It is very harsh because not every kid in these countries can do well in exams and academics. Only the smart and bright ones here have good jobs and careers - you are right on that one. But what if they don't? They have a tough time finding someone too.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

Speak for yourself Ignorantdude

Errr....WTF?? I guess Im not a fucken typiclal Asian.
Im not from fucken China or Japan.
I dont expect a fucken china doll to walk
around kissing my ass all fucken day.


Us islander dude live in paradize already..Fun in the sun with Tits N Ass everywhere. Good food. Good whine
Good sex, good time.

where will to do fucken slaves plans their 5 yr vactions to visit. Lamo

Im a babananaaaa .
My step father is a god **** red neck
from okalohma Crazy son of a btich
taught me how to play stairway to heaven..Jesus fucken Chirst
We rock in our fucken house.lmao

I got Jesus reaming the cross in oneside of my ears.
N fucken Buddah walking down the catwalk trying to keep ballance on the other.

---

Btw...its not rocket science to make Millions Some investments
or start up cash.... .
Be your one Boss. Run your own company My beautufl china doll of a duaghter and I will hire bitches wiht an
edujamcation to come work for us....

 

[IgnoredOne]

It is bad like that in any Asian country that has Chinese people in it e.g Singapore etc

Yes, It is very harsh because not every kid in these countries can do well in exams and academics. Only the smart and bright ones here have good jobs and careers - you are right on that one. But what if they don't? They have a tough time finding someone too.

I never said its better. Its different - not necessarily better; its more directly understandable and obvious. Like all things, it has its advantages and disadvantages.

China has a pretty obvious and sadly cruel system for handling the masses. There is a reason why alcohol is extremely cheap and subsidized, prostitution is inexpensive and easy to get to, and entertainment is common.

For the few that succeed, there is brightness. For the rest, there is plenty of intoxication to lose oneself in which keeps them useful otherwise. In a way, its not so different from everywhere in the world.

 

[rosebud]

For the few that succeed, there is brightness. For the rest, there is plenty of intoxication to lose oneself in which keeps them useful otherwise. In a way, its not so different from everywhere in the world.

It's good when your life is in your own hands. If we look western society not always the best and brightest do well in life. Hypocricy at its finest. I was baffled how low is the salary of the pilots in airline companies flying only domestic flights in the U.S.A. What motivation could these people have? And when you think of it, your life is in their hands...

I'm not saying China's regime is better, but I like the system for social success you described.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

I perosnally know a couple of millionair.
They both dont have any college educations. Both fucken nutz hahaaaa.

Poeple like us are smart enough to hire educated people
to maintain our bussness for us.

 

[IgnoredOne]

It's good when your life is in your own hands. If we look western society not always the best and brightest do well in life. Hypocricy at its finest. I was baffled how low is the salary of the pilots in airline companies flying only domestic flights in the U.S.A. What motivation could these people have? And when you think of it, your life is in their hands...

I've always wondered why investment bankers make more than neurosurgeons - do they genuinely contribute that much more to society than one of the most difficult medical professions in the world? Very dubious.

I approve of the Chinese system myself, with modifications. I think that it has a lot of good in it, though it might have shortcomings too. When I have children, I would like them to be brought up to seek excellence in all things as well.

 

[JamaisVu]

I perosnally know a couple of millionair.
They both dont have any college educations. Both fucken nutz hahaaaa.

Poeple like us are smart enough to hire educated people
to maintain our bussness for us.

That's the way to do it! Find people who are competent, keep them around and stick together. Success will likely follow.

I've always wondered why investment bankers make more than neurosurgeons - do they genuinely contribute that much more to society than one of the most difficult medical professions in the world? Very dubious.

Investors save corporations, neurosurgeons save individual lives. Large corporations employ many people while producing goods that society needs/wants, and those corporations require large sums of capital to operate. An investment banker can provide the capital to these corporations while trying to provide a modest return for their risk-taking clients. A neurosurgeon saves many lives over the course of his/her career, but are those lives really more valuable than the economic output of corporations? People aren't going to loan their money to corporations out of charity, and neurosurgeons don't work for free. They're both just providing a routine service for a fee and human life is not priceless, disregarding political correctness. Doctors are not Gods and they are very well-compensated for their efforts. Both professions are prestigious, stressful, require a high level of education, and the average salary places them in the upper class. You wouldn't trust just anyone with your brain, and you wouldn't trust just anyone with your money.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

I uuse to outsource projectts to China and other countries for a dime
on a dallor. Cheap...cheap..cheap..
labor and sub standards.

The USA have OSHA, MSHA for reasons.

I seriously doubt China has the
same standrads as the USA.

The higher cost of running as business and higher value of human lives..
.

---

China is increasing Coal Power Generating Plants Facilties to support its mass population and industrial grwoth. Technolgy dose get better over time..

.But Holy honeysuckle dudes... Let move to Beljin and be someone. Then die of lung cancer .fresia second hand smoking

 

[IgnoredOne]

Investors save corporations, neurosurgeons save individual lives. Large corporations employ many people while producing goods that society needs/wants, and those corporations require large sums of capital to operate. An investment banker can provide the capital to these corporations while trying to provide a modest return for their risk-taking clients.

But do they, really?

In a purely rational world, that would make complete sense and investment bankers would be compensated exactly for the substantial value they add to society through the support of companies that provide jobs and underpin capitalism.

But there is a lot to be dubious about that, not to the least being that the function of a business is to focus on its main profit center: the provision of goods or services for profit. Its like the old issue that Mcdonalds had with Beanie Babies - sure, selling plush stuffed animals was profitable, but it had nothing to do with their main function, which was to serve food.

All of that is easily countered by stating that the function of a business is, at the end of the day, a profit center that is to profit its investors regardless of its method. Fine. There still lies human irrationality at stake, and individual decisionmaking.

Its well known that people are strangely impressed by "big numbers." Offer a person a 10% chance to win 100,000 or a 1% chance to win $1,000,000; studies firmly show that people choose instead to go for $1,000,000, even though the actual earnings after risk is calculated are exactly the same. Investments offer rewards in the millions of dollars for a cost of, say, hundreds of thousands; who is to say that decisionmakers aren't falling for the same irrationality?

Perhaps ultimately and most importantly, the individual decisionmakers are in no way responsible for the overall welfare of society. A business makes a decision that will hopefully grant it more wealth, and some part of it will hopefully benefit society as a whole. That's great, and it does work. But what about benefits that are expensive for the individual, but necessary for overall group? Then it does not work as well.

I'll draw a simple example from history, in regards to piracy. The Hanseatic League was a powerful association of merchants and businessmen, and in order to protect their shipping, they employed mercenaries and paid for privateers to keep their shipping lanes clear. This system worked reasonably well for them, and allowed them to compete effectively against unaligned merchants; naturally the protected trade ships then could provide more goods at a lower price to consumers. However, many of the mercenaries would become brigands when not in service, and of course, did not protect any other merchants - so their overall good to society was mixed.

This was supplanted, though, by a publically funded method of protection: the British navy that effectively destroyed all piracy and essentially freed up all merchants to 'free' security publically funded by English taxpayers. While this meant that many of the individuals paying for protection(the taxpayers) were not immediate stakeholds or beneficaries, I think it is difficult to argue that the overall steamlining of trade did not improve the market situation for England, and really, the entire world.

Is the value to society of an HIV researcher less than that of an investment banker? Are we 'paying' the right costs for the immediate accumulation of funds versus that of overall progress of humanity? I would argue that is not so; I believe that the free market system works, but it is far from inerrant. It is a remarkable system for a rational world, but humans are not entirely rational and humanity writ large is almost invariably short-sighted.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

Make a profit at all cost...

fresia you dont have to China for
that.
The Mexican Cartil have the conner on the market on that...Pay whomever the fresia off for transport
lanes..If U dont agree...Off wihh you fucken heads. The price of doing business. and profits.
I wonder if those people have medical benitfit for working in a hazardous envirnment . Retirement or a pension?
Less over heads = more profits.
So off with more heads...

Better yet people dont need protect gears or MSDS. Dont want poeple livng forever. Breathe it all
in and soak it all bitches.
fresia the law suit. Never bend over for a penny when u can make a dallor.

---

I watched a young man worked with led
.senynide and whatever fresia else..
Thatll mess up his health and take
years off of his life later...
He made good money and was very proud to be able to support his family.


I made more money than he did siting on my ass in a truck from a safe distance watching him....

 

[JamaisVu]

Is the value to society of an HIV researcher less than that of an investment banker? Are we 'paying' the right costs for the immediate accumulation of funds versus that of overall progress of humanity? I would argue that is not so; I believe that the free market system works, but it is far from inerrant. It is a remarkable system for a rational world, but humans are not entirely rational and humanity writ large is almost invariably short-sighted.

Yeah, no large and ever-changing system is going to be perfect. Does a cashier deserve $15 an hour while a hotel maid is paid $10 an hour? Who really works harder and contributes more to society? There's not really an easy and correct answer, and I'm OK with that. I do know that neither of them are going to get $1000/hour while a doctor makes $10/hour in our world, and I think that's very fair. Collectively, people are basically setting the prices and wages based on what they feel is fair compensation for a given task.

If you want the HIV researcher to be paid more, should patients with HIV absorb that cost and pay more for their cure? Should individuals give up their hard-earned money out of charity to fund HIV research, when many of us take specific precautions to not contract the disease and will likely never suffer from it? Likewise, if I'm willing to offer a personal wealth manager 2% off the top of any profit he makes for me in hopes of giving him an extra incentive to perform better, should I be forbidden from doing so because you would rather he only receive 1% maximum?

If you're in favor of a socialist or communist system, I'll agree that there are valid arguments in favor of non-capitalistic economies. But in general a person's economic output and value is directly correlated with his/her salary in our society.

An individual HIV researcher likely does not cure HIV alone. He is working for a company and with a team. The company must purchase very expensive equipment and employ highly educated workers and follow stringent government guidelines. And a cure alone is worthless without a factory and workers to produce the drug that will prevent or cure HIV. The drug must then be packaged and distributed worldwide by global shipping companies. All of these big companies are listed on the stock market. I've invested my own excess cash into pharmaceuticals and shipping corporations and packaging corporations. It really does take cooperation and investors willing to take a risk. Without scientific progress, our quality of life would be very low. Without wise investment and informed overseers of our economy, we could not properly manage the resources of an entire Earth and it's billions of inhabitants, which is rather necessary for large scale research projects.

To say that the HIV researcher is inherently more valuable than an investor seems groundless. It sounds good at first because in our minds medicine == Good: Life, compassion, wise old doctors, newborn babies, etc. Meanwhile, investment bankers == Evil: Greed, excess, Bernie Madoff, heartless corporations, etc. That's not very rational though.

In my view, an HIV researcher and an investment banker are quite similar but there are still significant differences. I feel that investment banking is a much riskier profession than being an HIV researcher, and that may explain the difference in average salary. The customer base is also quite different, an investment banker deals with wealthy clients. On the other hand, HIV is rampant in areas of the world that have less money. That likely accounts for more of the salary difference.

If the HIV researcher stumbles upon a cure, the pharmaceutical company that employs him will stand to gain significant profit and prestige, and the researcher and his team will most likely be rewarded for their successful efforts. If the research is ultimately a failure, there may very little real gain and the result is a massive loss of capital. But at the end of the day if the HIV researcher fails to find a cure, it's not really his fault and he's not going to be fired for research that just didn't pan out scientifically. His superiors may be disappointed by the results, but they can't blame him unless he made a scientific error. Research is just that -- research, testing, investigating, following paths that may lead nowhere, and hoping that the clinical trials are successful.

An investment banker who funds successful companies will reap a high payout for himself and his clients. An investment banker who makes bad decisions will see very little gain, and potentially massive loss. If an investment banker cannot produce consistent results, he is solely responsible for those bad investment decisions and he risks being terminated by his clients or employer. If I am solely responsible for millions of dollars of other people's money, and I know these people will be very irate with me if I lose it all, I certainly expect to be well-compensated for the additional stress and accountability.

In my real life, HIV researchers and neurosurgeons have had absolutely no positive effect on my life whatsoever. I don't have HIV or brain tumors. On the other hand, investors fund the startup companies in my city and those companies are founded and staffed by my acquaintances. These are often very small companies, not listed on NASDAQ or the NYSE, but they rely on capital to operate.

....yeah, I don't usually derail topics quite so badly, but ...

 

[SophiaGrace]

Why in the world would you think that I want to recount and remember this experience? =/

 

[IgnoredOne]

Yeah, no large and ever-changing system is going to be perfect. Does a cashier deserve $15 an hour while a hotel maid is paid $10 an hour? Who really works harder and contributes more to society? There's not really an easy and correct answer, and I'm OK with that. I do know that neither of them are going to get $1000/hour while a doctor makes $10/hour in our world, and I think that's very fair. Collectively, people are basically setting the prices and wages based on what they feel is fair compensation for a given task.

And that is my /central/ argument. Are people perfect deciders? My firm belief is no - people are irrational actors and this is reflected squarely in compensation.

If you want the HIV researcher to be paid more, should patients with HIV absorb that cost and pay more for their cure? Should individuals give up their hard-earned money out of charity to fund HIV research, when many of us take specific precautions to not contract the disease and will likely never suffer from it?

And therein lies the moral of the story of Piracy Protection above. Does the average taxer payer have any obligation to pay for a public good that he can only benefit from indirectly? The British taxpayer who paid for Her Majesty's Navy to protect the interests of shipping most likely would never ever step inside a ship; does that mean that those taxes should not exist?

More pertinently, why should you deserve inexpensive water and power - in a purely demand driven economy, you should be directly responsible for the substantial costs of not only the price of energy but also the construction of the facilities such as the power plant. You enjoy the benefit from major government subsidies that are made possibly only by overall public taxtation, which can be very much 'forced charity.'

At the end of the day, has putting a man on the moon resulted in any objective, individual benefit? No. But has it advanced our species as a whole? Yes.

Public goods and services that benefit the society as a whole(defense, major works, perhaps research) do exist and therein lies a major argument for taxtation and forced charity("legal plunder," according to Frederic Bastiat).

You benefit from medical research: maybe not the Cure for HIV itself, but every month spent by said researcher also has the indirect benefit of improving our knowledge of the human body. Most likely, your overall lifespan or quality of life will be improved in some way connected to the advancement of medical knowledge done by HIV researchers. This benefit, however, difficult to divide and even more difficult to monetize - but it does not mean that it doesn't exist.

But in general a person's economic output and value is directly correlated with his/her salary in our society.

This is where we both agree and disagree. In general, perhaps there is a correlation. But there are /vast/ gaps where a person's contribution to society is not accurately measured by the free market system. Exploiting and expanding this gap, in fact, is what my profession was all about.

Is Starbucks coffee objectively and genuinely better than another coffee house that uses the same quality of beans? Of course not. A high quality coffee bean is a high quality coffee bean is a high quality coffee bean.

But why is it that the public, as a whole, is willing to pay more for Starbucks? Because of intangibles, which is called image in marketing - a cup of Starbucks implies status, reliable quality, and the "Starbucks experience." For that, the public is willing to pay between 33% to 50% more, a brilliant result of product differentiation.

But centrally, image is an illusion - it is the creation of nothing more than public perception(and hopefully for marketers, the result of successful advertising!). It doesn't exist. The same 18% caffiene cup is still the same whether it comes from Starbucks or Seattle's Best.

Starbucks by itself doesn't contribute any more public good than yayaya coffee house, but it earns a lot more; it does this entirely because humans are not rational. This doesn't make either Starbucks or humans evil, but it underlies my belief that human irrationality in and of itself is not always the best decider of which costs to resources to benefits. If a cup of coffee can vary so much because of human irrationality, do you believe that salaries cannot vary by the same or greater extent?

Without scientific progress, our quality of life would be very low. Without wise investment and informed overseers of our economy, we could not properly manage the resources of an entire Earth and it's billions of inhabitants, which is rather necessary for large scale research projects.

Exactly. But in a purely lassiez faire capitalistic economy, the ultimate overseers of the world are the buyers - in essence, the average uneducated citizen who pays with their dollars. Are they the best deciders for the collective whole of human progress?

Anyway, this is pretty derailed so we can continue in PM if you wish. My ultimate belief is that the free market system works, but it works with major and significant flaws because it ultimately assumes that people are rational actors. I'll love to hear more from you.