Men - do you feel yourself becoming an 'incel'?

[MysteriousTelephone]

So, I've posted here a fair bit over the last year. I believe I'm a fairly 'average' guy, am in good physical shape, socially confident, I have hobbies and interests and earn a decent living. Nothing spectacular, nothing terrible. Problem is, I've never had a girlfriend, and very extremely rarely anybody interested, the chief reason given to me is "too ugly". I've done everything I can do to negate this, getting in shape, taking care of my appearance etc, but at a certain level we're sort of stuck the the faces god gave us.

I really never thought of myself as an 'incel', though I am I suppose by definition "involuntary celibate" which is the actual meaning of the term, I never bought into the 'hating women' aspect of it. I don't hate women, it's not their fault that I'm ugly, sure it wouldn't hurt to take a chance on me, but them's the breaks I guess. Never bothered anyone, I've asked people out and respected their choice once they said no.

Recently, I am finding myself with, I suppose, less sympathy for a lot of women in my social circles. People who've spurned me in favour of chasing hot guys, then explode on social media when it inevitably goes wrong, moaning how there are no good men. There are good men, but some of them look like they fell off an ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. If you choose to ignore the objectively kind, funny, athletic individual in favour of the guy whose only achievement is great genetics and honeysuckle tattoos, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for you. Same with men, I suppose; had a guy come onto the scene, and within 2 months he's going out with one of the few attractive single women available. 6 months later she dumps him and he's moping around unhappy, and I'm expected to feel bad for him. Dude came with almost zero social skills or abilities, and was banging a hot blonde for 6 months, and given another month he'll likely be doing it again.

Does anyone else worry they're becoming an incel?

 

[Trevor]

Hey Mysterious, pleasure to meet you.

When I was in my early 20's I felt a lot like you do. I spent money on decent clothes, cologne the whole bit and it never seemed to be enough. All I saw where cute girls dating absolute punks. I started to feel like I was becoming an incel until I changed my strategy a little. What worked for me was doing things in life that rewarded me with higher levels of confidence in myself. I did a little working out and some sports. Those activities as I got better at them made me proud of myself. Proud enough to actually approach girls and ask them out. Confidence will go a long way in helping you find the right girl. You will get rejected by some but don't let that discourage you. As far as being "too ugly" don't dwell on that bro. There are many unattractive dudes out there getting girlfriends. There are many decent girls out there who will like you for you. Just be genuine when you talk with them. Don't make up a bunch of lies to impress them. Women are smart and will see through the bullshit, believe me I know.

 

[okidoke]

There are women who want "the whole package" and there are some that can see the important aspects to a guy, but they are rarer. People don't like to compromise very often these days. It's about THEM first, and they honestly believe they can "get something better", so they keep dismissing what might be there perfect match. Guys do this too of course. "Uglier" guys take longer to get to know; their true wonderful personality takes a while to grown on some women, but once the women realises this, then the bond is a lot stronger. You have to live life like you don't need anyone, and in the course of you living that life and being the real you, people get to like who you are. You can meet people in the unlikeliest places and start conversations through common interests and it just goes from there. One thing I know is that you have to have a genuine interest in the other person and don't approach them with even the hint of thinking that this person might be a potential mate. Just meet them, engage in interesting conversation that you both click about, and see what happens. If you otherwise have a very strong urge to just try sex, then a quality sex worker might be an option, so at least you have some experience. And one other thing; it's not necessary to share EVERYTHING with another person. You don't HAVE to confide all of your past and your inadequacies and your deficiencies and your mistakes, etc. Be the you who you are now, and let the other person like THAT you. What was WAS. No need to sow seeds of doubt unnecessarily.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Hey Mysterious, pleasure to meet you.

When I was in my early 20's I felt a lot like you do. I spent money on decent clothes, cologne the whole bit and it never seemed to be enough. All I saw where cute girls dating absolute punks. I started to feel like I was becoming an incel until I changed my strategy a little. What worked for me was doing things in life that rewarded me with higher levels of confidence in myself. I did a little working out and some sports. Those activities as I got better at them made me proud of myself. Proud enough to actually approach girls and ask them out. Confidence will go a long way in helping you find the right girl. You will get rejected by some but don't let that discourage you. As far as being "too ugly" don't dwell on that bro. There are many unattractive dudes out there getting girlfriends. There are many decent girls out there who will like you for you. Just be genuine when you talk with them. Don't make up a bunch of lies to impress them. Women are smart and will see through the bullshit, believe me I know.

I'm really glad that change in approach has worked for you, my dude!

I suppose my question to you would be; what would you do if you did those things, and it still achieved the same results?

Like, that's where I'm at. Socially confident, in good shape, no issues making friends or asking women out. I certainly don't make up lies, often I don't get far enough to tell them.

 

[Trevor]

I'm really glad that change in approach has worked for you, my dude!

I suppose my question to you would be; what would you do if you did those things, and it still achieved the same results?

Like, that's where I'm at. Socially confident, in good shape, no issues making friends or asking women out. I certainly don't make up lies, often I don't get far enough to tell them.

I would suck it up and keep on trying.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Involuntary Celibacy is not possible. It's an oxymoron. Celibacy by definition is a conscious choice to abstain from physical intimacy.

So, if we were to use and follow the rules of the language with which we use to communicate with one another, (that'd be neat, huh?), then Involuntary Celibacy is equivalent with the statement: "I had no choice but to make the choice of abstaining from women, despite preferring not to."

If one has no choice but to make a choice, they simply had no choice. And celibacy by definition is an active choice, for moral/religious considerations, to abstain.

Have a nice day..

 

[ardour]

I'm already an incel by most definitions (single male, never really dated, now old and bitter).

I don't envy your generation. Approaching now requires "consent" via vague and easily misread signals. Of course the onus to initiate and risk creep shaming and insults still lies with men though, as if it were 1954 instead of 2024.

Not sure what to tell you.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Involuntary Celibacy is not possible. It's an oxymoron. Celibacy by definition is a conscious choice to abstain from physical intimacy.

So, if we were to use and follow the rules of the language with which we use to communicate with one another, (that'd be neat, huh?), then Involuntary Celibacy is equivalent with the statement: "I had no choice but to make the choice of abstaining from women, despite preferring not to."

If one has no choice but to make a choice, they simply had no choice. And celibacy by definition is an active choice, for moral/religious considerations, to abstain.

Have a nice day..

If it's a choice, it sure ain't my choice, it's theirs!

Honestly, it feels like that entire reply was written by ChatGPT.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

If it's a choice, it sure ain't my choice, it's theirs!

Honestly, it feels like that entire reply was written by ChatGPT.

Plenty of AI's with boyfriends and girlfriends...

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Given no opportunity to make meaningful intimate connections with the opposite sex; wouldn't one at least prefer not to define their self with a linguistic contradiction? Is that not an optimal alternative?

There is a very real and shortcut way to not being an incel. Realize it's a logical fallacy and a linguistic contradiction. An oxymoron that has no basis in reality...

...and from that point on, one never has to be an incel again; as such a thing does not exist. You'll just be lonely and in pain, like a great many people who crave intimacy of all different kinds (of which many do, because collectively humanity is often quite fearful and ignorant, and individually people are often quite flawed).

1984 has a few expositions on something called newspeak...

You're problem is one that either can be solved, can not be solved, or partially solved to varying degrees. @okidoke has a little advice. I've offered you advice on the subject previously, I believe. Sometimes life just hurts and one needs to be heard.

Anyway I've proven myself ignorant enough, already...

 

[ardour]

Given no opportunity to make meaningful intimate connections with the opposite sex; wouldn't one at least prefer not to define their self with a linguistic contradiction? Is that not an optimal alternative?

I don't think anyone cares about semantics. We know what incel refers to. The term carries a lot of connotations that could be self-fulfilling, but again, for the socially/romantically marginalized, it's probably well past that point.

 

[Unsigned]

There are good men, but some of them look like they fell off an ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Honestly I've seen the pic you posted and IMO, you are not ugly.
Brad Pitt? No. And neither am I. But certainly you are not ugly.

Does anyone else worry they're becoming an incel?

Nah.
I am really too old to worry about anything.
In fact, I refuse to get a colonoscopy.
I see no point to it.

There are many decent girls out there who will like you for you.

Maybe...but they won't be all that attractive...

Women are smart and will see through the bullshit

Erm....I have to strongly disagree with this. Just based upon my 58 years on this earth.

People don't like to compromise very often these days

Well, here's the thing about compromise.
The state of affairs between males and females from 200,000BC to 1965 was pretty much the guys who are the best providers and protectors get the prettiest girls. After Western Govts stuck their noses into it, that changed. Because now females are provided for regardless, they can chase "bad boys" for "tingles" instead of latching onto a good guy. This is why our societies are so F'd up these days.
Could guys like me "compromise" and be with a mediocre millie? I guess. I simply refuse. Not going to happen.

It's an oxymoron.

Only if you are OK with settling for a female whom you feel is below what you would normally want as far as attractiveness goes.
My point is that prior to the "sexual revolution/women's movement", males were considered high status due to their ability as providers, and the best providers got the hottest girls. Now, the tattooed losers on motorcycles get them.

Of course the onus to initiate and risk creep shaming and insults still lies with men

I don't give 2 dead flies if people consider me a "creepy old man".
And I am sure many do.

There is a very real and shortcut way to not being an incel.

Yes. It's called finding and settling for a girl you do not find attractive.
MOST guys can do this.
I cannot.

but again, for the socially/romantically marginalized, it's probably well past that point.

Yep.


Have a great week everyone!

 

[okidoke]

Could guys like me "compromise" and be with a mediocre millie? I guess. I simply refuse. Not going to happen.

Compromising is subjective too, but in any case, sure, you're entitled to do as you please with your choices, although if that choice isn't providing your needs, then obviously you either suffer the consequences or adapt your requirements.

(I'm suffering the consequences for now lol)

 

[ardour]

Well, here's the thing about compromise.
The state of affairs between males and females from 200,000BC to 1965 was pretty much the guys who are the best providers and protectors get the prettiest girls. After Western Govts stuck their noses into it, that changed. Because now females are provided for regardless, they can chase "bad boys" for "tingles" instead of latching onto a good guy. This is why our societies are so F'd up these days.
Could guys like me "compromise" and be with a mediocre millie? I guess. I simply refuse. Not going to happen.

Before the 1960's marriage and relationships were not optional for most women.

Now women have control over their fertility and access to the job market. So yea, the idea of an average guy as a breadwinner is obsolete, but welfare doesn't have much to do with it. Few women would choose scraping by on welfare to a decently paying job.

So unless you want to turn back the clock and take away women's right to work, there's nothing to be done about this. Also, this 'stability' came at a price. I doubt many people today want to be changing nappies or working extra shifts at the factory to support 4 children at age 22.

 

[Unsigned]

but welfare doesn't have much to do with it.

Not welfare.
It's govt putting a gun to the heads of Western corps forcing them to hire women and others. That whole "disparate impact" thing.
As well as the change to divorce laws that came about in the 60s.

So unless you want to turn back the clock...

God...that would be nice...

Before the 1960's marriage and relationships were not optional for most women.

And western society at large was much better off for this.

Again...just IMO.

 

[ardour]

Not welfare.
It's govt putting a gun to the heads of Western corps forcing them to hire women and others. That whole "disparate impact" thing.
As well as the change to divorce laws that came about in the 60s.

I don't buy it. Men and women have roughly equal IQs. Women are typically more conscientious than men. No reason to avoid hiring them.

You might have benefitted from marrying young while you were young, but for this to benefit society you'd have to remain married - to a now middle aged person.

 

[michael2]

I think the thing the incels are upset about the most, is that they have to put in 100x the effort of a handsome guy just to even get a chance.

The handsome guy has the girl chasing him and gets sex on the first date if he wants it

The incel is ignored by women and if he does get a girl's attention he has to spend months proving himself to her before even becoming her girlfriend.

Life sucks, it isn't fair

But you know what? There's nothing we can do about it.

If your waiting for girls to give you signs that they like you, it's not gonna happen. You have to go out there, ask for girls' numbers, ask them out, get rejected allot, but you'll eventually find someone who likes you. Yes it's 100x easier for the hot guy, but if you want a chance, you have to take the hard route. But you can win

 

[randomguy]

Woohoo! another incel thread, I'm so excited!

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I think the thing the incels are upset about the most, is that they have to put in 100x the effort of a handsome guy just to even get a chance.

The handsome guy has the girl chasing him and gets sex on the first date if he wants it

The incel is ignored by women and if he does get a girl's attention he has to spend months proving himself to her before even becoming her girlfriend.

Life sucks, it isn't fair

But you know what? There's nothing we can do about it.

If your waiting for girls to give you signs that they like you, it's not gonna happen. You have to go out there, ask for girls' numbers, ask them out, get rejected allot, but you'll eventually find someone who likes you. Yes it's 100x easier for the hot guy, but if you want a chance, you have to take the hard route. But you can win

Yes, that's basically the mindset that is resonating with me, and I hate that it does.

Most of my friends are moderately attractive to very attractive, and they don't believe me when I tell them it's a different world out there for me.

Right, for the record I've got no confidence issues talking to women, asking people out etc, my issue more is that because of the 100% rejection rate, I'm finding I have less sympathy/empathy for women (in regards to relationship issues) and that's definitely not a good sign.

 

[Trevor]

Woohoo! another incel thread, I'm so excited!

Get a lot of those here huh?