Myths and Truths

[suckaG]

Men who have a lot of experience with women will tell you that women are notoriously out of touch with their inner selves and can't clearly articulate what sexually attracts them to men.

I'm sure some men might tell me that, and that some women are probably unsure about what they desire. but women as a whole gender being out of touch with their inner selves? that is a massive, massive generalization to make.

I wrote the first response in this thread. Read it. The best people to ask advice on how to date women are the people who date them--men.

I read your post. I don't ascribe to the alpha-gamma-beta stuff, but hostility towards 'weak men' is an interesting point. I think it's just as arguable that what constitutes 'weakness' or 'masculinity' is culturally/socially determined as well.

I'm not convinced that women have lost their 'primal instincts' about physically desirable men; girls in the west seem to be as sexually bold and hungry for hot guys as ever before, as the top songs on the radio continue to graphically elucidate.

 

[Mary Mary]

Men who have a lot of experience with women will tell you that women are notoriously out of touch with their inner selves and can't clearly articulate what sexually attracts them to men.

I'm sure some men might tell me that, and that some women are probably unsure about what they desire. but women as a whole gender being out of touch with their inner selves? that is a massive, massive generalization to make.

I wrote the first response in this thread. Read it. The best people to ask advice on how to date women are the people who date them--men.

I read your post. I don't ascribe to the alpha-gamma-beta stuff, but hostility towards 'weak men' is an interesting point. I think it's just as arguable that what constitutes 'weakness' or 'masculinity' is culturally/socially determined as well.

I'm not convinced that women have lost their 'primal instincts' about physically desirable men; girls in the west seem to be as sexually bold and hungry for hot guys as ever before, as the top songs on the radio continue to graphically elucidate.

Of course, it's obvious that there are inherent accuracies about in every generalization. I don't know why people feel an incessant need to point out what's so obvious, but generalizations can be made. Do you really want to sit there and tell that if I make the generalization that looks is an important, although not the only, factor that governs a man's sexual attraction to a woman that I'm wrong?

I know women like hot guys, but I don't what you're talking about when your reference songs on the radio.

However, more to my point. You can prove me wrong. Go to any dating website and read through the profiles of women and tell me how many say that they want a man who's confident; yet there's not a man alive who dates women who will tell you that confidence isn't a necessary attribute to have to successfully date women.

Also, find me a single short guy that says that height doesn't matter.

The reason men don't get angry when you make the ugly accusation that they judge women by their looks is because they know it's true! However, the reason women get angry when you make the ugly accusation that their sexual attraction is governed by superficial traits like confidence, money, status, and power is because they don't know it's true, so they feel like you're just trying to insult them.

Also, jerks have a lot of alpha male characteristics (arrogance can be mistaken for confidence). If you're a woman who dates, you've been caught in the grips of and been mistreated by one before; and when they hear men say that women like jerks, they hear "yeah, but you wanted it (the mistreatment)". Then, they get their back up.

I don't know if you saw the original thread where some of the men started going down that "women like jerks" road. I wasn't offended because even though women don't like jerks per se, I know what these men were really trying to say about us women; and I know it's true! I was better able to clarify what it is that really attracts women to these jerks. It's not their abusive nature, but it's the other aspects of their nature such as confidence.

 

[suckaG]

Of course, it's obvious that there are inherent accuracies about in every generalization. I don't know why people feel an incessant need to point out what's so obvious, but generalizations can be made. Do you really want to sit there and tell that if I make the generalization that looks is an important, although not the only, factor that governs a man's sexual attraction to a woman that I'm wrong?

no, but i do want to contest your original point, that women as a gender are ignorant of their inner desires and lack clarity in explaining what they want, unlike men.

I know women like hot guys, but I don't what you're talking about when your reference songs on the radio.

I was referring to the post where you talk about women having somehow lost their 'primal selves' somewhere along the line, while men still have it because they base their desire on women's physical traits. maybe I misunderstood your definition of what constitutes female 'primal instincts'?

However, more to my point. You can prove me wrong. Go to any dating website and read through the profiles of women and tell me how many say that they want a man who's confident; yet there's not a man alive who dates women who will tell you that confidence isn't a necessary attribute to have to successfully date women.

an interesting suggestion about the dating profiles. and I wholeheartedly agree, confidence is a key ingredient and definitely an attribute that men need in order to successfully date.

from my experience talking to female friends, and even all over this site, confidence is indeed something that is articulated as being important for guys to foster. how could it be any other way? genuine confidence is such an important quality.

Also, find me a single short guy that says that height doesn't matter.

where did this come from? But I'll find you one alright: me! I'm 5 "5 and single, and I don't think height particularly matters. i know some guys around my height who have had loads of girls.

The reason men don't get angry when you make the ugly accusation that they judge women by their looks is because they know it's true! However, the reason women get angry when you make the ugly accusation that their sexual attraction is governed by superficial traits like confidence, money, status, and power is because they don't know it's true, so they feel like you're just trying to insult them.

I agree that physical beauty, money, status and power are all superficially attractive traits that multitudes of humans seek to gain and flaunt.

 

[Mary Mary]

no, but i do want to contest your original point, that women as a gender are ignorant of their inner desires and lack clarity in explaining what they want, unlike men.


I was referring to the post where you talk about women having somehow lost their 'primal selves' somewhere along the line, while men still have it because they base their desire on women's physical traits. maybe I misunderstood your definition of what constitutes female 'primal instincts'?


an interesting suggestion about the dating profiles. and I wholeheartedly agree, confidence is a key ingredient and definitely an attribute that men need in order to successfully date.

from my experience talking to female friends, and even all over this site, confidence is indeed something that is articulated as being important for guys to foster. how could it be any other way? genuine confidence is such an important quality.


where did this come from? But I'll find you one alright: me! I'm 5 "5 and single, and I don't think height particularly matters. i know some guys around my height who have had loads of girls.

I agree that physical beauty, money, status and power are all superficially attractive traits that multitudes of humans seek to gain and flaunt.

I will agree that when it comes to most of the human psyche, women totally out gun men in terms of understanding their inner landscape and being able to articulate what they feel and want. However, human sexuality is the quantum physics of the human mind. All forces reverse, and men are the kings of being in touch with their inner selves and can clearly articulate in pornographic detail of what they find sexually attractive.

I'm absolutely not saying that women are not intensely sexual creatures. We most certainly are, but we don't have a good conscious awareness of the processes that govern our sexual attraction like you do.

I've never heard a woman mention confidence when talking about what they want in men. I'm sure I'm not the only woman in the world who knows how important confidence is in attracting women, so I'm not surprised to hear of some woman somewhere saying this; but women generally don't acknowledge this unless you bring it their attention. Once again, go to any dating website and tell me how many women list confidence as an important attribute in a man.

Now because the rise of internet dating, women may be more in touch with the fact that they want men of a certain height and salary range because these are search options that dating websites provide, so they think about it; however, outside of this, if you hand a woman a blank sheet of paper and ask her what attributes she finds sexually attractive in a man, you'll probably see a mismatch.

Oh, and in case you think I'm full of crap, science supports me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html

" The men’s minds and genitals were in agreement. All was different with the women.... with the women, especially the straight women, mind and genitals seemed scarcely to belong to the same person. "

About the height thing (sorry it was disjointed, I was in a hurry), it just goes back to my idea that you can make generalizations about women (women prefer tall men). However, I agree with you, and I told the guys on this website. You don't need all the alpha male characteristics to attract women. You just need to give us enough to hang our hat on. Just as we don't need to be supermodels to find a guy, but we've got to give you something worth looking at.

For modern, enlightened people of an industrialized nation, what governs sexual attraction is just so ugly. It may have had value when we were cavemen and women, but it hardly has any place in modern society.

 

[Brian]

Remember, even the smoothest player gets shot down more often than he gets lucky.

It's not the getting shot down that scares me. I don't really care.

It's getting shot down with sexual harassment charges that scares me.


Scares isn't really the word, even. More like, 'Cripplingly terrifies'. Which is two words, but whatever.

I guess I just always envision myself being the unlucky prick who uses some sort of sexual innuendo or makes a sexual comment and bam, court room.

 

[Mary Mary]

Remember, even the smoothest player gets shot down more often than he gets lucky.

It's not the getting shot down that scares me. I don't really care.

It's getting shot down with sexual harassment charges that scares me.


Scares isn't really the word, even. More like, 'Cripplingly terrifies'.

Is this at work?

 

[AFrozenSoul]

I do not need to read this article, because of the last bit of advice you posted. That is the best lesson anyone can teach you. Remember this is your life only you can live it.

Another problem humans have, we like to see things as they should be, not how they are. Lies are far prettier than the truth.

 

[Brian]

Is this at work?

As much as I would like to shag some of my female coworkers in the back of the ambulance on repeat and regular occasions, no.

It can still happen though. And what if she makes a big deal about being offended? Like, to make other people stare? This isn't a hick town where the locals think outsiders have purdy mouths, but it's not a heavily populated county and I'm not exactly in a good occupation to be considered a creep or a pervert.

 

[Mary Mary]

Is this at work?

As much as I would like to shag some of my female coworkers in the back of the ambulance on repeat and regular occasions, no.

It can still happen though. And what if she makes a big deal about being offended? Like, to make other people stare? This isn't a hick town where the locals think outsiders have purdy mouths, but it's not a heavily populated county and I'm not exactly in a good occupation to be considered a creep or a pervert.

Oh, you mean a woman that you're helping in your line of work (which is an admirable line of work)?

Your human resources person can probably give you really good advice.

Unfortunately, if someone wants to make trouble for you, there are an infinite number of ways they can do it.

 

[Brian]

Oh, you mean a woman that you're helping in your line of work (which is an admirable line of work)?

Your human resources person can probably give you really good advice.

Unfortunately, if someone wants to make trouble for you, there are an infinite number of ways they can do it.

What??? Am I sprechen sie Deutch? No. I just said this isn't at work, and it's immoral and unethical and expressly forbidden to make advances on patients or accept a patient's advances. Like, grounds for having your license suspended without question. There's no way I'd ask HR about it, they'd throw me out of the office and tell me to never even think about it again.


I'm talking about normal, day to day life. I could easily see myself out with a girl (who isn't a coworker or a patient, or a supervisor, OR an underling, and is entirely unrelated to work, because I am not talking about work) and make some sort of suggestive or edgy sexual comment and having it blow up in my face in a seriously bad way. In fact I'm almost positive that it would, which is why I don't. I have no concept of what constitutes acceptable flirty sexual innuendo without running the immense risk of accusations of harassment. So say we were out in public, even if she doesn't make a legal problem out of it and try to nail me, she's going to be offended enough that people are going to notice and stare, and assume I'm a creep, and that could get around. And that's the BEST case scenario.

It would be interpreted very differently coming from me as opposed to somebody who has a lot of experience dating since, say, high school. It also doesn't help probably that I wear a buzz cut and refuse to dress like a tool.

 

[Mary Mary]

What??? Am I sprechen sie Deutch? No. I just said this isn't at work, and it's immoral and unethical and expressly forbidden to make advances on patients or accept a patient's advances. Like, grounds for having your license suspended without question. There's no way I'd ask HR about it, they'd throw me out of the office and tell me to never even think about it again.


I'm talking about normal, day to day life. I could easily see myself out with a girl (who isn't a coworker or a patient, or a supervisor, OR an underling, and is entirely unrelated to work, because I am not talking about work) and make some sort of suggestive or edgy sexual comment and having it blow up in my face in a seriously bad way. In fact I'm almost positive that it would, which is why I don't. I have no concept of what constitutes acceptable flirty sexual innuendo without running the immense risk of accusations of harassment. So say we were out in public, even if she doesn't make a legal problem out of it and try to nail me, she's going to be offended enough that people are going to notice and stare, and assume I'm a creep, and that could get around. And that's the BEST case scenario.

It would be interpreted very differently coming from me as opposed to somebody who has a lot of experience dating since, say, high school. It also doesn't help probably that I wear a buzz cut and refuse to dress like a tool.

Crap. I started this message, then I hit the wrong button; and it disappeared.

Sorry about the confusion. I hadn’t had my coffee, yet.

Safe innuendo would be ‘you look good in that dress’. You could say ‘you look nice in that dress’; but that’s also something you could say to your mom, so it’s not edgy enough.

Also, some men never verbally flirt. They use touch. A safe timeline is as follows:

Date 1: ‘You look good in that dress’

Date 3: ‘You’ve got great legs.’ (Legs are the only safe body part to comment on.) You can kiss her on the lips on the third date, but no tongue. You can sensually touch the safe erogenous zones: outer, lower thigh and her back above her waist.

Date 4: You can make out with her

Date 5: You can try and sleep with her

A few comments. This is a very safe formula. You can practice and work to be more aggressive and edgy if you want. Some women will get offended for the silliest reasons. I had a guy friend who likes ethnic women; however, he went out with a Caucasian woman and after a number of dates told her that he liked her more voluptuous behind. She got offended. He explained that he liked curvy women. Now my friend is a really sweet guy, so I can’t see that she misread him. My friend thinks that she was starting not to like him and made that as an excuse to dump him.

Some women may think that the formula above is too aggressive, and it’s OK if she wants to wait; but she shouldn’t get offended. However, unless there’s a compelling reason (like she’s religious and actually goes to church every Sunday or comes from a country where they have much more conservative ideas on how women should behave), if a woman withholds affection or sex for too long, then that’s a red flag.

It’s OK if you behave like a normal male, buzz cut and all; and if a woman freaks out on you, that’s her problem.

Also, finding your groove with dating requires trial and error.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Brian]

Hmm, ok. Thanks. I like the examples, that helps a lot.

Sorry I was snappy, today started off on an incredibly sour note and only got worse until I did some breathing exercises and let it go, lol. I was barking at everyone 'til about 4 PM.

 

[Mary Mary]

Hmm, ok. Thanks. I like the examples, that helps a lot.

Sorry I was snappy, today started off on an incredibly sour note and only got worse until I did some breathing exercises and let it go, lol. I was barking at everyone 'til about 4 PM.

Not a problem.

Also, in terms of being in public. As long as your behavior is in the typical range of male behavior (and that's a pretty wide range), there's an extremely low chance of a woman being psycho enough to freak out on you--even with the buzz cut.

You've got a good head on your shoulders. You won't make the mistake of doing something to make a woman to legitimately get hysterical. You can trust your instincts.

If a woman is that crazy, most people will already know about her.

 

[ChiCowboy]

I glanced through it, and some of it is true to an extent. I wouldn't take it as gospel. The one thing that caught my eye was pay attention to your instincts.

 

[Mary Mary]

I glanced through it, and some of it is true to an extent. I wouldn't take it as gospel. The one thing that caught my eye was pay attention to your instincts.

Puh-leeze do not take what I said here as gospel. It's just a starting point. Talk to a lot of different people, especially men if you're a man.

 

[ChiCowboy]

I glanced through it, and some of it is true to an extent. I wouldn't take it as gospel. The one thing that caught my eye was pay attention to your instincts.

Puh-leeze do not take what I said here as gospel. It's just a starting point. Talk to a lot of different people, especially men if you're a man.

WTF? A little self-centered are we? Who mentioned anything about you? Certainly not me. I didn't even know you were here. Sadly, now I do. Get ahold of your bad self Mary part deux. It's not about you.

 

[Mary Mary]

I glanced through it, and some of it is true to an extent. I wouldn't take it as gospel. The one thing that caught my eye was pay attention to your instincts.

Puh-leeze do not take what I said here as gospel. It's just a starting point. Talk to a lot of different people, especially men if you're a man.

WTF? A little self-centered are we? Who mentioned anything about you? Certainly not me. I didn't even know you were here. Sadly, now I do. Get ahold of your bad self Mary part deux. It's not about you.

Relax, cowboy. I thought you were talking to me because your post was directly under my post. I'll sometimes respond to people that way.

Woops. Looks like you made an erroneous inference there, too.

(I love irony.)

 

[ChiCowboy]

I glanced through it, and some of it is true to an extent. I wouldn't take it as gospel. The one thing that caught my eye was pay attention to your instincts.

Puh-leeze do not take what I said here as gospel. It's just a starting point. Talk to a lot of different people, especially men if you're a man.

WTF? A little self-centered are we? Who mentioned anything about you? Certainly not me. I didn't even know you were here. Sadly, now I do. Get ahold of your bad self Mary part deux. It's not about you.

Relax, cowboy. I thought you were talking to me because your post was directly under my post. I'll sometimes respond to people that way.

Woops. Looks like you made an erroneous inference there, too.

(I love irony.)

Uhhh...no. I know fully well why you jumped the gun. I'm not stupid. Your arrogance, especially in placing blame on others for your lack of skill, is beginning to look like stupidity, though. Take my advice. Stop digging. A simple, "My bad" works wonders. Try it. You'll like it. And so will we.

 

[jales]

@ChiCowboy .. you are being mean..

the thread was going really nice before all this..

I hope it continues.

Mary Mary's theories are interesting.

And something I think a lot of men dont really realize. It would be especially helpful to guys who seem themselves as 'good guys who finish last'.

She's just saying that guys and girls want different things. And I think its interesting.

Good guys also maybe need to re-define how they identify good girls.

A good girl isnt usually a shy, innocent, naive...virgin (well what good-guys would be attracted to).. she is more likely to be someone who has been used a lot and who is emotionally damaged.

When I say good girl.. i mean the equal of a good guy..

so the good-girl-finishes-last person.

Interesting.. I think it could help good guys to realize this.

 

[ChiCowboy]

I'm not being mean. I'm reacting as anyone would to an arrogantly written "Puh-leeze," followed by an erroneous claim of error on my part. Catch my drift?