People like us are held to higher standards

[ardour]

Go with only the intent to be looking for someone to do something with. There are plenty of others looking for friends out there. Usually groups of people want to be around our people. So, they are typically more welcoming and accepting of your faults. So, target them.

I've a fairly active social life.  I've gone to plenty of meetups and also met a few people through hobbies or at the gym. People have been generally welcoming, true, but that doesn't mean a social circle can be formed from any of this. We will never experience a group dynamic: The "groups" at this age are  lifelong friends not welcoming of outsiders.  It's just an individual met here or there in different circumstances.

Good! 

You have to really work at becoming a member of an established group. It takes a lot of time and effort. Some groups it may never happen. But, don't give up. Look for new groups just forming. Or try forming your own group on meetup. But, give it a lot of time and seek out other people.

You need to bring value to the group like specific experience, expertise, humor, generosity, something that is wanted or needed since you don't have history with them. For instance maybe get to know some hiking trails and offer to lead group hikes. Other group members will definitely want to get to know you. Then you can ask other people you meet if they are interested in hiking and tell them you are leading some hikes.

You may not have lifelong history with group members. But, you can start forming your own history with them now.

While I appreciate your advice that doesn't solve of problem of not relating to (or wanting to relate) to similar age peers. I gravitate towards younger people for a number of reasons (wanting a second youth since I didn't get a first). Being a valued member of a middle-aged circle is... unappealing... Sounds arrogant but it's how it is.

 

[Finished]

^ Then seek out groups with younger members. Many younger people don't want to be group leaders. You'll be the older wiser one they look up to and very well may respect.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Prostitution is legal in New Zealand...

I hope you and I both can escape the vicious circles in our minds; the fog of despair, the smoke of anger, and pain of lonliness, all these things together can leave one roaming the earth, like a blind ghost; feeling invisible to everyone, and not truly being able to be a part of anything, no matter how close it is.

Anyway, good luck man..

 

[TheSkaFish]

Prostitution is legal in New Zealand...

With all due respect...I get really tired of seeing people say this, whenever someone brings up loneliness as an issue. It's like those who say things like this aren't even reading OP's post or listening to them when they tell you what their problems are, but rather, you are telling THEM what their own problems are for them. Time and time again, someone will suggest this as an answer, when almost every time, the OP is saying they are lonely for both sex AND a relationship. They want intimacy, not just sex. They want what it seems like everyone else has, as a normal part of life. They want what they grew up being taught was normal, and what they saw as normal. They want what you feel not only in your body but your mind, heart, and soul - a real connection.

It's NOT just about sex, it very rarely is. In fact, the kind of person who just wants sex, usually doesn't even have problems like this in the first place. Cynical, unemotional (except for cockiness and smug superiority), non-sentimental guys who view life as nothing but cold competition, power struggles/dominance games, and survival of the fittest, seem to have little to no problems with attraction.

Also, I feel like it would be absolutely terrible for a person's self-esteem. If you're lonely, your self-esteem is probably hurting. And to hire a prostitute is to admit defeat - it's to admit that you are so worthless, so defective, so inferior, that you have to pay for what others - including some godawful excuses for human beings - get for free as a normal, natural part of life that they don't think twice about, just for existing and not doing anything that particularly special, AND risk STDs including the deadly, life-ruining ones, as well as public humiliation - not to mention the private humiliation that you would get even if no one ever found out about it. It's confirmation that other people, including the ********, really are just better than you, and that YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, even for something normal, because YOU ARE A LOSER. I feel like it would just destroy what's left of a person's self-esteem.

Again, it's not my intention to offend or antagonize you, but I originally started this post with a "Sorry" and it reminded me of an article I read lately saying that we overuse the word sorry, diluting its meaning and making us more indecisive and less confident. It would be dishonest, wishy washy, and cowardly of me to leave that in there, since I am not sorry for my views on this, this is how I really think and feel on the matter.

 

[ardour]

It is legal, but as Skafish put it, we just want to feel normal, as in not entirely undesirable. Sex with an escort who finds the ordeal disgusting won't help and then you have to live with it. Inexperienced men going down that road talk about it making them suicidal.

 

[TheSkaFish]

^ exactly.  And even if they don't find the ordeal disgusting, it doesn't make it any less of loser behavior.

And like you said, then you have to live with it.  There is nothing you can do to wipe it off your record of life.  You can't undo it, can't undo the fact that you sunk that low, that life and other people muscled you out of relationships and into that.  You can't 100% say that you're not a loser, not inferior no matter what you might achieve afterwards, because you will always know that you engaged in serious loser behavior.  You can't ever wash out the stench or stain of humiliation and inferiority.

Another thing I just realized now, that I've noticed over the years, is that whenever anyone suggests prostitution as the answer, they always suggest it as the answer for other people, never for themselves.  It's almost like "well I wouldn't do it, because I don't have to. But you should, because you're defective/inferior, so that's all you're good enough for." If it's so great, why don't they do it? Because they know it sucks, nobody wants it, it's not really the answer that anyone asking this question is looking for.

It's easy to tell other people that they should resign themselves to stooping to low levels, give up any and all standards (and that they aren't good enough to have standards), and do degrading things that one would never do themselves.

I think suggesting prostitution as the answer to loneliness/lack of a relationship, shows a lack of understanding of the issue.
Not only that but a lack of understanding based on an unwillingness to understand the issue,
because of feeling like it's not an issue worthy of consideration,
because of feeling that the people dealing with it are themselves unworthy of consideration,
because of their perceived inherent inferiority/lack of power.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Um, last I checked "normal" people go to prostitutes, so how is it not "normal" behavior?

 

[TheSkaFish]

Um, last I checked "normal" people go to prostitutes, so how is it not "normal" behavior?

Just because they do, doesn't mean they should, or that it is a good idea. Or that it addresses the loneliness/lack of relationship issue which is what this is really about, not just the sex part. People that try to reduce it to being just about sex, miss the point.

 

[ardour]

Um, last I checked "normal" people go to prostitutes, so how is it not "normal" behavior?

"Normal" men also cheat on their wives. 

Moralizing aside, it doesn't help our situation.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Um, last I checked "normal" people go to prostitutes, so how is it not "normal" behavior?

"Normal" men also cheat on their wives. 

Moralizing aside, it doesn't help our situation.

I just fail to see how going to a prostitute means you aren't good enough or a loser when people not in your situation also go to prostitutes.  I'm not recommending going to a prostitute, I just don't understand the logic of what you and Ska said.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I just fail to see how going to a prostitute means you aren't good enough or a loser when people not in your situation also go to prostitutes.  I'm not recommending going to a prostitute, I just don't understand the logic of what you and Ska said.

It's two different situations/motivations.

With the "normal" people, I would say it's just a bad/dumb life decision, without the additional issue of being unable to attract a woman. That's the "not good enough"/"loser" part.

When it's suggested that guys who struggle to attract a woman to just go to prostitutes instead, it's like saying that's all we're good enough for and we should just resign ourselves to it. Like we're not good enough to attract someone so we have to settle for that instead. Personally, when people say that I feel like it's like they are calling me worthless, like saying I just inherently suck and it's not something I can fix, the sucking/being a loser is who I am at my core and I can't separate myself from it. And I find it highly offensive. That's how I feel at least.

Anyway. I don't want to get too far afield from Ardour's original topic, though.

 

[ardour]

Um, last I checked "normal" people go to prostitutes, so how is it not "normal" behavior?

"Normal" men also cheat on their wives. 

Moralizing aside, it doesn't help our situation.

I just fail to see how going to a prostitute means you aren't good enough or a loser when people not in your situation also go to prostitutes.  I'm not recommending going to a prostitute, I just don't understand the logic of what you and Ska said.

"Normal" men go to prostitutes because they want to avoid the hassle of finding a willing partner NOT because they can't find anyone. A large percentage of the clientele are married.

 

[Just Games]

Wouldn't it at least get you onto first base having sex with a prostitute,give you more confidence when looking for a woman to have sex with and if all works out a relationship if you're lucky.I remember when I was 19 ,a late starter in my peer group, I was freaked out by the fact that a woman would know that I was inexperienced in sex.

I don't get how people who haven't even visited a prostitute know exactly how they'd feel ,how anyone would feel after being with a prostitute. As on a former thread someone i worked with was loving his life with prostitutes. How do you know if you've never experienced it?I must admit I was lucky that day having a long chat with my colleague about his experience with prostitutes. He didn't feel ashamed of the fact he really wanted to tell me all about it.Have either of you been this close to how life using prostitutes might actually benefit some people or are you just reading stuff off the Internet?

 

[ardour]

Read enough accounts of it. Half the older men who try this have embarrassing experiences with "stage fright."

I don't see how sex with a woman who finds you disgusting is going to help with confidence or prepare you for anything. They're being paid to fake it. You're not getting proper insight into what women really enjoy.

 

[Just Games]

Read enough accounts of it. Half the older men who try  this have embarrassing experiences with "stage fright."

I don't see how sex with a woman who finds you disgusting is going to help with confidence or prepare you for anything. They're being paid to fake it. You're not getting proper insight into what women really enjoy.

How do you know they find you disgusting?

---

I actually thought about it when I was younger,I just wanted to get my end away,feel what it was like.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Because ardour is an expert in how/what women think....

 

[Just Games]

Because ardour is an expert in how/what women think....

Well he's a better man than me

Alright here's a little example of my mouthy mates/colleagues experience with a prostitute. A lady he'd seen for over a year.Greeted with open arms like an old friend,go out for some posh nosh,talk about each others kids and allsorts,sorry I was yawning a bit wanted to crack on with work  didn't take it all in,back to her flat ,dirty deed is done,she even told him a couple of times to stay longer with no extra money probs cause she might of actually been enjoying sex/company with him.He saw a few like this Independents with own flats .He was encouraging me to do it  .Surely he said same woman 200 years you need extra...assuming little ******** :club:.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I'm not sure if ardour is only seeing the crackheads or people forced into it and thinks that's all there is or what, but yeah, some women actually do enjoy sex and become escorts/prostitutes because of that. Maybe they are nymphos and that's the only way to get all the sex they want. You can't know, no one can know except that particular person.

 

[Forgottendanfan]

Because ardour is an expert in how/what women think....

And you seem to be an "expert" in how /what lonely, frustrated men should feel.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Wouldn't it at least get you onto first base having sex with a prostitute, give you more confidence when looking for a woman to have sex with and if all works out a relationship if you're lucky.

No, it's not a correlation. It's not the sex that gives you confidence when looking for a woman. It's knowing that you're good enough to attract someone. Knowing you're good enough to be chosen. Knowing your material, your thoughts, ideas, the way you think, the way you talk, the way you carry yourself, your whole feel/vibe/character, is good enough for a woman to choose you. And knowing that you have the power to get what you want, to make what you want happen - which in this case is something normal - instead of being kicked around, limited, relegated, beaten into submission by life, forced to accept a crappy existence. That's where confidence comes from.

Hiring a prostitute has nothing to do with attraction. It just has to do with having enough cash. If you have the money you can have sex, but it doesn't mean you're actually good enough for a woman, or good enough to make the things you want in life happen for yourself. That's the whole thing about being a loser - powerlessness, the lack of ability to make things happen for you while life imposes itself on you instead.

I just feel like there are things that a person is supposed to be able to do in order to be "normal", to be "at least OK". Not every man will become a millionaire, or own a Ferrari, or become famous, or things like that, and you can't really be faulted for not having those things. But you should be able to at least attract someone, among other basic things. That's not above and beyond, that's just normal life, which most people take for granted without giving it much conscious thought. For most, it's something that just happens naturally as a result of living your life. That's what I'm talking about.

I don't get how people who haven't even visited a prostitute know exactly how they'd feel ,how anyone would feel after being with a prostitute.

There are a lot of things I don't have to experience to know that they aren't good things. Hard drugs, for instance. People love heroin, cocaine, and meth, but it doesn't mean I should give them a chance for the experience or agree with people's life choices to do them.

Also I don't have to experience these things to know how I would feel about myself, for having done them.

I must admit I was lucky that day having a long chat with my colleague about his experience with prostitutes. He didn't feel ashamed of the fact he really wanted to tell me all about it.Have either of you been this close to how life using prostitutes might actually benefit some people or are you just reading stuff off the Internet?

I worked with someone once who said he'd seen a prostitute before. Outwardly I smiled and nodded, but in my head I was like, what the hell is wrong with you? Are you trying to catch a disease and ruin your life?

I didn't treat the person any differently afterwards, but I definitely lost respect for him. The thing is, I don't know why this guy did what he did. According to his stories, he hooked up with girls from bars all the time.

I'm just going to have to disagree on this.