Tell me if this makes sense

[grainofrice24]

I used to think I was on the shy side when it comes to dating because I had low self esteem. And while that was part of it, I've made some changes and I don't think I'm so much "shy" as I am...out of my element.

See, it just keeps occurring to me that my instincts when talking to women are wrong. I say or do the wrong thing. When I'm trying to go with the flow...in hindsight I sort of realize...i'm not that comfortable "in the flow" and I make stupid mistakes (story of my life).

For me, being good at something always comes with practice. Be it work, or sports or music or cooking or whatever. I'm comfortable talking to women just shootin' the honeysuckle, but guys are supposed to talk to women DIFFERENTLY if they're interested romantically right??

So I figure I need to practice "hitting" on women. The thing that's shitty about it is, getting shut down sucks. We all know that. But I figure I just need to go out and not care about getting shut down...and like a boxer toughening up his knuckles, or a musician developing a callous, you just need to do it and eventually you'll stop feeling the pain. But then that seems like a pretty "blunt force, unsophisticated" solution...like trying to chop a tree down with a dull axe instead of sharpening it first and then cutting it down in a snap. And what am I supposed to be? That guy in a club or something who hits on every girl and gets shut down?! And being totally devoid of emotion? I don't know...advice?

What bugs me though is people who seem to have a natural knack for saying the right thing @ the right time. :club:

Sorry about the (slightly drunken) rant

 

[beans]

I used to think I was on the shy side when it comes to dating because I had low self esteem. And while that was part of it, I've made some changes and I don't think I'm so much "shy" as I am...out of my element.

See, it just keeps occurring to me that my instincts when talking to women are wrong. I say or do the wrong thing. When I'm trying to go with the flow...in hindsight I sort of realize...i'm not that comfortable "in the flow" and I make stupid mistakes (story of my life).

For me, being good at something always comes with practice. Be it work, or sports or music or cooking or whatever. I'm comfortable talking to women just shootin' the honeysuckle, but guys are supposed to talk to women DIFFERENTLY if they're interested romantically right??

So I figure I need to practice "hitting" on women. The thing that's shitty about it is, getting shut down sucks. We all know that. But I figure I just need to go out and not care about getting shut down...and like a boxer toughening up his knuckles, or a musician developing a callous, you just need to do it and eventually you'll stop feeling the pain. But then that seems like a pretty "blunt force, unsophisticated" solution...like trying to chop a tree down with a dull axe instead of sharpening it first and then cutting it down in a snap. And what am I supposed to be? That guy in a club or something who hits on every girl and gets shut down?! And being totally devoid of emotion? I don't know...advice?

What bugs me though is people who seem to have a natural knack for saying the right thing @ the right time. :club:

Sorry about the (slightly drunken) rant

Hi Pancakes,

What makes you think you say the wrong thing at the wrong time? I honestly think there aren't any hard and fast rules for flirting or trying to get a girl. What works for one works differently for others. But usually, just by talking, you'd really know if someone is interested in you. You'd know. If you have to think about it, it means you're just hoping and you want so much to believe that it is true when it is not.

A girl/guy will definitely respond to you if they like you back and is interested in you and you'd know too. It's nothing complicated, nothing hard. It's only hard when you want the person so much but the other person doesn't seem to respond the way you want them to. Then you'd be asking 'how' and 'why'.

 

[jjam]

Getting "shut down" is nothing compared to being strung along.
Go through that just one time and you'll be a changed man. Trust me, you'll appreciate the absolute clarity that comes with getting shut down...

 

[Lonesome Crow]

You want to be more graceful about it?

first and formost...you might have take a closure look at how you raised. Someone.somewhere had told you hitting on a woman isnt nice..or maybe your moher or a family member got treated badly by men or maybe they just beleive a certain way past that idea to you...
stuff likr
" thats shallow..all you thing about is sex..blah...blah.blah"
or
" your such a pig for seeing women as a sexaul object"
Its kind da in grained into you...its subtle..thats why you give tripping over you own feet when you wanna hit on a woman in a sexaul way.
You and I know..we want more than just sex in a relationship or from women..

So you gatta go root out some of thses
old ideas and unworkable beleifs...
Work it from the inside out.
Change ur thinking..change your life.

The women your trying to hit on arnt your grandma. Mother. Siters or aunts..

You heard of this?
"u wouldnt treat ur granmother like that
so why would you treat women like that"

Ya get what Im saying?

---

Im not viod of emotions when I want to meet and get to know a beautiful woman....what Im viod of is

GUILT....
guilt is a trained emotional sponse.
Thats why ur tounge gets all twisted
cuase somehow ingrained inside of you
you think sex is dirty..

Women dont wanna be treated like your granmother. Mom or sisters...dude.
Its not want they want from you..
She wasnts a man not a brother. Uncle or daddy.

---

Im not viod of emotions when I want to meet and get to know a beautiful woman....what Im viod of is

GUILT....
guilt is a trained emotional sponse.
Thats why ur tounge gets all twisted
cuase somehow ingrained inside of you
you think sex is dirty..

Women dont wanna be treated like your granmother. Mom or sisters...dude.
Its not want they want from you..
She wasnts a man not a brother. Uncle or daddy.

---

Dont fall into the trap of taking on a role of her big brother, uncle or daddy..if your not....

Some call that the FRIENDZONE...
You can mingle , enteract with women
that youre in the friendzone with all day and all night...

 

[SofiasMami]

Oh, you totally make sense. I'm somewhere between shy and outgoing but totally out of my element when trying to talk to a man :O I was dating for awhile and met some nice guys but had the worst time trying to carry on a conversation, just too dang nervous and when I get nervous I get ridiculously giggly. It's embarrassing. I'm sorry I don't have a solution - I just gave up on dating when I realized I can have a more meaningful conversation with my 4 year old than with an adult male. Just pitiful If you have any advice or a solution, I'm eagerly awaiting

Teresa

 

[grainofrice24]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Sobering up and reading your comments helped put things in perspective.

@ Beans: I suppose hindsight is always 20:20. When I look back on some of my interactions with women I always think "What did I do wrong" and "What can I do better" (as I do with almost everything I do). I hate living with regret so I try to avoid it. Sometimes it just seems to stick in my brain that "she was interested and things were going smooth until I said something or did something...then she seemed uninterested". Sometimes some women seem distant, then receptive, then distant, then receptive. I do learn from every experience...i'm just sick and tired of learning from bad experiences...i'm overdue for a good one.

@jjam: Amen to that

@Lonesome Crow: Despite your atrocious spelling/grammar I think I got some of your key points. Nobody wants to be in the friend-zone with someone they're interested in romantically...I mean having female friends is always nice, but once you're in the friend-zone...the door is closed on a romantic relationship. And I suppose maybe I have to re-evaluate my perspective when approaching potential relationships. My home was 3 men (me + brother + father) and 1 woman (mother). When a feminine perspective was given it wasn't always given the time of day if it didn't pass the "logical" standard. My dad would always say things like "If it doesn't serve some kind of purpose...and gets in the way...and all it does is look nice...why do we need it?!". I'd be lying if that sort of mentality didn't rub off on me.

@Teresa: I know what you mean. It sucks going over a date in your head afterwords and thinking of how embarrassing you were. I really puts me in a lousy mood. AAH! 2 words..."gave up" = EVIL!! . Nah I'm kidding, having it not work over and over can definitely take its toll. But if I ever manage to get it right i'll let you know so you can give it another go .

 

[beans]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Sobering up and reading your comments helped put things in perspective.

@ Beans: I suppose hindsight is always 20:20. When I look back on some of my interactions with women I always think "What did I do wrong" and "What can I do better" (as I do with almost everything I do). I hate living with regret so I try to avoid it. Sometimes it just seems to stick in my brain that "she was interested and things were going smooth until I said something or did something...then she seemed uninterested". Sometimes some women seem distant, then receptive, then distant, then receptive. I do learn from every experience...i'm just sick and tired of learning from bad experiences...i'm overdue for a good one.

Ah OK. I see. You worry too much I think. You don't want to play the game of pleasing them or acting in a way to get them otherwise you'd be miserable later on because you're not being yourself. Of course some people (it's not just women), its everyone, they will be distant, then receptive, distant, then receptive. Nobody is 100% the same all the time because we all have moods etc. Which is why I said that if they are interested in you, they'll act the 'right' way to show that they ARE interested!

But I guess one thing to do is to not act the way they want you to act. People will notice that, and quickly get turned off because its like you are behaving in a way to earn their approval. That's why so many people have said that girls like guys who don't care what others think of them.

 

[IgnoredOne]

Its definitely a learned skill, but it also relates to yourself. Unless you plan on spending a lot of money on dating coachs, your best option is probably the blissful crash and burn technique of learning.

Beyond that, a lot of it has to just do with people experience in general. You're essentially trying to build rapport, while being confident in yourself(this is usually the harder part); basically, you should have a pretty good idea that this is the way things should be and why this is the way things should be.

The friend-zone can also serve a purpose too, it just depends on what purpose you're looking for it to serve. It does usually end the chances of a romantic relationship, you are correct, but there's a lot of experience worth getting to know people and learning of different perspectives nonetheless which can help you achieve your goals in the future.

 

[SofiasMami]

I don't think I could ever get a dating coach. That just seems a little...weird to me. But that's just my opinion.
I love to watch "The Millionaire Matchmaker". It's on some cable channel. The "matchmaker" (I think her name is Patti) matches up wealthy people. I don't relate to the wealthy part but I do relate to some of the characters that she matches up. I saw a show last week where she matched up a guy that seemed nice but a little introverted and had a hard time hitting it off with his matches. I had to laugh when the matchmaker called in a counselor for some "extra help". What they showed of the guy's personality reminded me of me. God, is there no hope for us introverts?!

Teresa

 

[grainofrice24]

Girls like guys who don't care what others think of them?? Food for thought beans. I was born and raised to seek the approval of others. Ugh...life's too complicated. Looks like I'm gonna spend the rest of my life fighting every gut instinct I have...:club:. (at least when it comes to women).

Boo dating coaches!! Those are like life coaches...people who charge you for advice you could get from a friend for free. There is hope for introverts....but I think it demands that we be a little less introverted. As usual the answer isn't in the extremes of introverted/extroverted but in that delicate balance that is always a pain in the ass to find.

 

[beans]

Girls like guys who don't care what others think of them?? Food for thought beans. I was born and raised to seek the approval of others. Ugh...life's too complicated. Looks like I'm gonna spend the rest of my life fighting every gut instinct I have...:club:. (at least when it comes to women).

Boo dating coaches!! Those are like life coaches...people who charge you for advice you could get from a friend for free. There is hope for introverts....but I think it demands that we be a little less introverted. As usual the answer isn't in the extremes of introverted/extroverted but in that delicate balance that is always a pain in the ass to find.

But hun, you are not an introvert. I know you've been working on it and you're less shy. But yes, I think most of us care too much about what others think and generally people like people who are just freeeeeee and are not seeking external validation because who would feel safe and comfortable with a guy who is approval seeking?

 

[IgnoredOne]

Girls like guys who don't care what others think of them?? Food for thought beans. I was born and raised to seek the approval of others. Ugh...life's too complicated. Looks like I'm gonna spend the rest of my life fighting every gut instinct I have...:club:. (at least when it comes to women).

This actually confuses me; you said that you were raised in a household of men? One of the more classical concepts in Communication is that men are raised to seek respect and women are raised to seek ingratiation. So didn't your father, etc, raise you to seek respect as well beyond just approval?

I have always liked how Steve Pavlina put it:

A man who claims his #1 commitment in life is his relationship partner (or his family) is either too dishonest or too weak to be trusted. His loyalties are misplaced. A man who values individuals above his own integrity is a wretch, not a free thinker.

A man knows he must commit to something greater than satisfying the needs of a few people...

The link is well worth checking out.

Boo dating coaches!! Those are like life coaches...people who charge you for advice you could get from a friend for free.

I'm more than slightly uncomfortable with this; should we also boo all teachers and anyone else who might have specialist knowledge to share? While there are certainly there are life/dating coaches who are not effective, I believe that there are many who have at least something useful to communicate and educate. I took a great deal of advice myself from Dale Carnegie's How to Make Friends and Influence People and it had a direct impact in how well I could relate to people.

There is hope for introverts....but I think it demands that we be a little less introverted. As usual the answer isn't in the extremes of introverted/extroverted but in that delicate balance that is always a pain in the ass to find.

For me, it took courage and self-acceptance. Courage to try out situations and allow myself to get hurt for the greater purpose of learning; self-acceptance that I had flaws or traits of myself not conducive to what I sought in life, and that those traits were to be marginalized or abolished where needed.

 

[beans]

A man who claims his #1 commitment in life is his relationship partner (or his family) is either too dishonest or too weak to be trusted. His loyalties are misplaced. A man who values individuals above his own integrity is a wretch, not a free thinker.

A man knows he must commit to something greater than satisfying the needs of a few people...

The link is well worth checking out.

Coming from someone who left his overweight wife during his rise of fame to pursue polyamorous relationships, I can see why he says that.

 

[grainofrice24]

@ Ignored one

Yeah, I was raised in a household of men...but my parents always taught to seek the APPROVAL of others. Look presentable, behave a certain way, get a good job so that others will accept you. Respect is not something my family puts high on the priority list. I learned the value of respect from friends and people outside my family. I love my dad and I respect him because I know what he does. The one thing that my dad taught me was that "Real character is doing the right thing when no one is looking". Because I understand that about him I respect him. He grew up without a mother and did well for himself regardless. But when it comes to other people like other family and friends...he doesn't go out seeking respect...he just wants to be accepted. Maybe it's because the only people that respect him are the people who are close enough to him to know he deserves it. But I do agree that going out and seeking acceptance isn't enough now a days...the real goal is to earn someones respect.

As far as Dating Coaches go...I am very skeptical of someone who offers your their words for your money by the hour. If someone writes a book and puts their advice in it...then I agree, going out, buying their book and reading it CAN do wonders. But when I think "Dating Coach" I think of some phony-baloney love-salesperson with a cheap office, claiming they know the secret to a strong and healthy relationship which can be yours if the price is right . There is no secret to a relationship, and if there is you probably can't learn it from someone like that. You have to learn it for yourself. That and someone once said "never trust those who stand to profit". I personally have never heard a successful story from someone who consulted a dating coach...that wasn't in an ADVERTISEMENT for a dating coach.

 

[IgnoredOne]

I think of some phony-baloney love-salesperson with a cheap office, claiming they know the secret to a strong and healthy relationship which can be yours if the price is right . There is no secret to a relationship, and if there is you probably can't learn it from someone like that. You have to learn it for yourself. That and someone once said "never trust those who stand to profit". I personally have never heard a successful story from someone who consulted a dating coach...that wasn't in an ADVERTISEMENT for a dating coach.

Maybe its both in the ability of the student to absorb the material as well as the ability of the teacher to convey it? I never went to a dating coach but I did take a lot of time once to internalize a number of principles that I read from PUA forums and books, then went to 'practice' it when I went to vacation in Toronto for a week. Its only empirical evidence, but suffice to say that I managed to get enough interest to pick up the numbers of seven girls in as many days and I was not sleeping alone for two days of the week.

Some circumstances may apply - I was going to a convention where I was able to meet a lot of women, but I can /clearly/ tell you that I was considering and ruminating on what I had learned when I was talking to some of them. So while I didn't have a dating coach, some of their principles did seem to work for me in terms of relationships and I do feel like that if you had a good teacher, it would help.

Its like any other form of skill-learning; you need to put in effort to adapt it to your own circumstance, while the teacher can hopefully convey the information to you in the form that is most useful and customized to yourself.