Men - do you feel yourself becoming an 'incel'?

[TheRealCallie]

Sigh, you can't help those who don't want to be helped.....

Step away from the excuses, people.....

 

[FlynnRyder]

Speak for yourself, bud.

I've got a rejection rate of **** near 100%, but I've never felt "public humiliation" as you describe it. Largely, because I tend to ask people out in a more one-to-one setting.

Yes, hot guys have it easier, it's hardly a newsflash, but this idea that ugly people, and I believe I'm allowed to say this as an ugly person, can still make a move.

Step away from the excuses, people.....

See, this is what I'm talking about. People are real caring and empathetic for the concerns and well being of other downtrodden people, but lonely men are given the "bootstraps" attitude.
Mysterious: maybe YOU haven't been ridiculed publicly. I have, irl and online, repeatedly. It sucks, its crippling, and when it happens again, and again, it begins to have an effect on your psyche. when you all you know is rejection, you begin to realize that you never had a chance, and it affects your outlook. especially in a society that places your worth as a human being on how desirable you are to potential partners.
And before anyone chimes in with the typical "So what are you supposed to do, just give up?", as a man, if you were to do that, that should be OK! and those of us who should know better should be the first in line to say, "Hey, you are a virgin? you're still valid." "Hey, you haven't had a date since this decade? you're still valid." but society doesn't do that for men, AT ALL, ANYWHERE. and it breeds more resentment, because they do it for women.
there's a current discussion going on about women leaving the dating pool in droves, and are there any insults coming in the direction of these women? no. they left the marketplace and they are better for it. the blame is centered on all the supposed bad men they have turned them off to the experience (the idea that these women may have contributed to their dating struggles in any way is not even considered.)
and when these women leave, is it because of the jerkoffs who name call, assault, SA, and just in generally abuse their way through the female population? No, its those horrible losers that are on the internet complaining, they ruined everything.
thats the thing, we're the butt of every joke. we're the cause of every problem. we put hitler in power. we caused global warming.
Now we could do something constructive, and not lump lonely men with online toxic cults, but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could take the opportunity to have honest, open, and frank conversations with these men and say: "this is your contribution to this scam. this is what you are doing that perpetuates your condition", but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could create spaces where men could engage in the dating/courting practice, free from judgment or ridicule, whether in a safe or virtual setting (of course, there would have to be some sort of moderation to protect against potential harassment or abuse.), but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
you know all those lonely women that we keep hearing about, well here we have all these lonely men out here. let's something up where those who want to can meet up in a setting made completely for them, but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could totally start a social movement that can reexamine and redefine romantic culture, fighting against the culture that celebrates toxicity in men while objectifying women, addressing the condition that created the moment we are in, while pushing back against the toxic grifters that thrive on the conditions of these people who have been left behind, but but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.

 

[TheRealCallie]

See, this is what I'm talking about. People are real caring and empathetic for the concerns and well being of other downtrodden people, but lonely men are given the "bootstraps" attitude.

Yeah, you can't put that one on me. I give the "bootstraps" attitude to literally EVERYONE for nearly any stiuation. Ask around. You will get nowhere in life if all you do is throw out excuses. Stop finding reasons to complain to start finding reasons to be grateful.
Quite honestly, I think half your (generalized you, not you you) problem is that you base so much of your existence on what society thinks, what EVERYONE ELSE is going to say or do. Who cares about society, who cares about the majority of other people out there who are just going to hate on anything/anyone that they deem lower than them. They are not worth the time and effort. They are nothing, they are the 1%. If you aren't going after solely "gorgeous, sexy, shallow" women when you get that response, you need to focus on what kind of vibe you are sending out into the world. And if you are blaming and hating on women in general, you will be seen as ugly to a lot of women. Ugly is solely about looks only for shallow people. Everyone else sees deeper than that.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

See, this is what I'm talking about. People are real caring and empathetic for the concerns and well being of other downtrodden people, but lonely men are given the "bootstraps" attitude.
Mysterious: maybe YOU haven't been ridiculed publicly. I have, irl and online, repeatedly. It sucks, its crippling, and when it happens again, and again, it begins to have an effect on your psyche. when you all you know is rejection, you begin to realize that you never had a chance, and it affects your outlook. especially in a society that places your worth as a human being on how desirable you are to potential partners.
And before anyone chimes in with the typical "So what are you supposed to do, just give up?", as a man, if you were to do that, that should be OK! and those of us who should know better should be the first in line to say, "Hey, you are a virgin? you're still valid." "Hey, you haven't had a date since this decade? you're still valid." but society doesn't do that for men, AT ALL, ANYWHERE. and it breeds more resentment, because they do it for women.
there's a current discussion going on about women leaving the dating pool in droves, and are there any insults coming in the direction of these women? no. they left the marketplace and they are better for it. the blame is centered on all the supposed bad men they have turned them off to the experience (the idea that these women may have contributed to their dating struggles in any way is not even considered.)
and when these women leave, is it because of the jerkoffs who name call, assault, SA, and just in generally abuse their way through the female population? No, its those horrible losers that are on the internet complaining, they ruined everything.
thats the thing, we're the butt of every joke. we're the cause of every problem. we put hitler in power. we caused global warming.
Now we could do something constructive, and not lump lonely men with online toxic cults, but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could take the opportunity to have honest, open, and frank conversations with these men and say: "this is your contribution to this scam. this is what you are doing that perpetuates your condition", but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could create spaces where men could engage in the dating/courting practice, free from judgment or ridicule, whether in a safe or virtual setting (of course, there would have to be some sort of moderation to protect against potential harassment or abuse.), but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
you know all those lonely women that we keep hearing about, well here we have all these lonely men out here. let's something up where those who want to can meet up in a setting made completely for them, but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.
we could totally start a social movement that can reexamine and redefine romantic culture, fighting against the culture that celebrates toxicity in men while objectifying women, addressing the condition that created the moment we are in, while pushing back against the toxic grifters that thrive on the conditions of these people who have been left behind, but but that would require compassion for men we wouldnt have sex with, and we can't do that.

I can only speak from my own experience; I felt that Unsigned was speaking for all of us when he said that being rejected is humiliating, which has not been my experience.

That is to say, whilst I am being rejected at a depressing rate, I don't consider it "humiliation". Humiliation is public, it's wetting yourself in front of the whole school, or your nudes being leaked online, I don't consider any interaction I have with one other person to be humiliating. Even if I ask someone out in a bar or club scenario, it's so loud that even though I'm getting rejected nobody else in the room is aware of it, they're not paying attention. I certainly wouldn't ask someone out in front of their friends, that would fit the definition of humiliation.

Look, I'm not invalidating anyone's personal experience, however I do believe that if you view yourself as a victim, that's just what you'll become.

 

[Unsigned]

I felt that Unsigned was speaking for all of us when he said that being rejected is humiliating

Absolutely not speaking for everyone.
I really don't do that.
I was only speaking for myself and figuring that guys with similar childhood/teen experiences as me might feel the same.

it's wetting yourself in front of the whole school, or your nudes being leaked online

It doesn't have to be that bad.
Can be getting thrown into mud puddles in gym class, or having people grab your arm to see if they can get their fingers around your biceps area, or having teams wait to see when you get picked to make that team the "skins" (so they can poke at your ribs) when playing basketball or something.

 

[ardour]

Absolutely not speaking for everyone.
I really don't do that.
I was only speaking for myself and figuring that guys with similar childhood/teen experiences as me might feel the same.


It doesn't have to be that bad.
Can be getting thrown into mud puddles in gym class, or having people grab your arm to see if they can get their fingers around your biceps area, or having teams wait to see when you get picked to make that team the "skins" (so they can poke at your ribs) when playing basketball or something.

Or it could be people elbow charging you to the head while playing a "friendly" game of rugby.

Choked out by a "friend" in front of people.

Being laughed at and messed with by girls in class.

Later in adult life....

Being called a piece of s**t to your face by other guys, out of the blue for no apparent reason.

Female coworkers visibly bothered by you existing in the same physical space as them.

Women acting like you're a contagious disease after daring to show interest in them.

Such confidence building experiences. Really helps with getting out there and asking 100+ women out.

 

[Unsigned]

Being called a piece of s**t to your face by other guys, out of the blue for no apparent reason.

Oh yes.
If I had dime for every time I was called a "skinny piece of $h1it"...
And by "friends" even.

 

[TheSkaFish]

^I'm sorry you guys both seem to have had sh*tty "friends".

I changed what I posted here because the more I thought about it, the more I thought repeating past stories about this kind of stuff isn't constructive. I know why it happened, now I have to find the way out so that it doesn't repeat. I have to find the exit ramp to this old story, and get on the freeway to a new life.

I have to admit that I lucked out in the friends regard. For everything else I struggled with, I did manage to have good friends, that I'm still friends with to this day. That's one thing I got right.

 

[swirlturtle]

Wondering if some of you heard of Dr. K or HealthyGamerGG? He has a very interesting conversation with Steven Bartlett about this very topic and how men don't really have the safe space to express their emotions in today's society.

 

[Unsigned]

the more I thought about it, the more I thought repeating past stories about this kind of stuff isn't constructive

You are right. It is not.
TBH, when I dwell on the past, I get resentful, hateful and depressed.
And when I get depressed, I drink.
Which leads to no exercise, more depression and more drinking.

But sometimes people just don't understand what it is like to grow up being constantly picked on with no respite.
I have to believe anyone who goes through that from 5 to 17 will have different brain wiring.
And what might be simple for people who had relatively "normal" formative years becomes nearly impossible them.
Things like dating and having a relationship.
No matter how normal you may look on the outside, your brain is there preventing/"protecting" you from taking certain types of risks.
But quite frankly, and especially for me, encouraging other, more risky risks...

 

[ardour]

But sometimes people just don't understand what it is like to grow up being constantly picked on with no respite.
I have to believe anyone who goes through that from 5 to 17 will have different brain wiring.
And what might be simple for people who had relatively "normal" formative years becomes nearly impossible them.
Things like dating and having a relationship.
No matter how normal you may look on the outside, your brain is there preventing/"protecting" you from taking certain types of risks.
But quite frankly, and especially for me, encouraging other, more risky risks...

This is true for me as well. The idea of romantic rejection was always terrifying, partly because it would re-enforce existing feelings of low self-worth.

But it also seems related to a high cortisol fight-or-flight type response that was ingrained in early life. Normal set-backs and embarrassments others take in their stride feel like high stress events.

So we hide away, don't take risks. And here we are in middle age without even a fraction of the life experience of an average person.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

It doesn't have to be that bad.
Can be getting thrown into mud puddles in gym class, or having people grab your arm to see if they can get their fingers around your biceps area, or having teams wait to see when you get picked to make that team the "skins" (so they can poke at your ribs) when playing basketball or something.

Right, but whatever it is, there's an audience, something is done to you in front of several others, that in some way lowers their perception of you.

Someone who is already not going to go out with you, she's already made that up in her mind, telling that to you because you asked, does not fit into 'humiliation' for me. Her view of you is no lower, you just didn't realise she wasn't interested. Unless you grabbed the mic at an event and asked her out in front of a crowd.

 

[Unsigned]

Right, but whatever it is, there's an audience, something is done to you in front of several others, that in some way lowers their perception of you.

Someone who is already not going to go out with you, she's already made that up in her mind, telling that to you because you asked, does not fit into 'humiliation' for me. Her view of you is no lower, you just didn't realise she wasn't interested. Unless you grabbed the mic at an event and asked her out in front of a crowd.

Yes, but the scenario I had pictured was rather different than the one on one setting you describe.
I should have been more specific, but I meant cold approaching a hot girl (most likely with a few of her friends) in a swanky rooftop or club loaded with frat-boy finance bros for her to choose from. And then an "outsider" like me comes up and tries to talk to her.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Yes, but the scenario I had pictured was rather different than the one on one setting you describe.
I should have been more specific, but I meant cold approaching a hot girl (most likely with a few of her friends) in a swanky rooftop or club loaded with frat-boy finance bros for her to choose from. And then an "outsider" like me comes up and tries to talk to her.

Right... ballpark figure here sparky, how many times would you say you've been at a swanky rooftop bar, and approached a group of attractive strangers whom you've never spoken to before, to ask one of them out?

 

[Unsigned]

Right... ballpark figure here sparky, how many times would you say you've been at a swanky rooftop bar, and approached a group of attractive strangers whom you've never spoken to before, to ask one of them out?

To "ask out"?
Never.

To ask if they wanted to come over have a drink?
Probably about 15 times.
Mostly when encouraged/chided by coworkers when we were out for drinks.
Once when my friend from out of state was here, and I was trying to get girls to come over and have drink with us.

BTW, who is "sparky"?

EDIT:
Removed the last part.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

To "ask out"?
Never.

To ask if they wanted to come over have a drink?
Probably about 15 times.
Mostly when encouraged/chided by coworkers when we were out for drinks.
Once when my friend from out of state was here, and I was trying to get girls to come over and have drink with us.

BTW, who is "sparky"?

EDIT:
Removed the last part.

See, I don't want to call 'bullshirt', it just seems like an odd move that anyone in these forums is hanging out at swanky rooftop bars and has no issue approaching a group of random attractive women, asking if they want to join them. Maybe it's a cultural thing, in the UK that's just not a move that's really attempted unless you're a model. It's more common here for conversations to ignite in a place of somewhat forced proximity, such as waiting at the bar, or in a smoking area.

What I'm driving at is, that's such a bold move that even fairly-ok looking men wouldn't have much luck trying it (in the UK at least), so I wouldn't take it as a personal insult that these women didn't take you up on your offers.

 

[Unsigned]

See, I don't want to call 'bullshirt', it just seems like an odd move that anyone in these forums is hanging out at swanky rooftop bars and has no issue approaching a group of random attractive women, asking if they want to join them. Maybe it's a cultural thing, in the UK that's just not a move that's really attempted unless you're a model. It's more common here for conversations to ignite in a place of somewhat forced proximity, such as waiting at the bar, or in a smoking area.

What I'm driving at is, that's such a bold move that even fairly-ok looking men wouldn't have much luck trying it (in the UK at least), so I wouldn't take it as a personal insult that these women didn't take you up on your offers.

As far as the "bull shirt" is concerned, here is some background info regarding myself:
1. I've been working with Wall St firms since 1987.
2. I'm a heavy drinker
3. Many places where I have worked, we'd go out for drinks. At some firms, it was regularly.
4. Sometimes the guys would chide single guys like me to go and talk to some random girl, and once in a while I did it.
5. I never took it as a personal insult.
6. And TBH, I was always polite. But a couple of times the girl was excessively rude to me in return.

As far as why I am on this site, I came here about a year and a half ago.
Here is the post that explains why:
https://www.alonelylife.com/threads...he-exact-result-you-wanted.44295/post-1024901

I realize I am not the typical type of person that posts here and my problems pale in comparison to the genuine suffering that many here write about. I'm just a heavy drinking wh0re ch@ser quickly approaching old age who gets lonely from time to time.


EDIT:

it just seems like an odd move that anyone in these forums is hanging out at swanky rooftop bars and has no issue approaching a group of random attractive women, asking if they want to join them.

I said I did this about perhaps 15 times total.
Out a few hundred times being in these types of places over the years.
So it was a very rare occurrence.
I'm no wannabe "pick up artist".

 

[TheRealCallie]

But a couple of times the girl was excessively rude to me in return.

Sorry, but when you want someone that is as niche as you want, you will mostly get rejection. I don't care how much money you have or how good you look. Plain and simple, to the average young woman, an older man is going to be "gross". That isn't going to change until you find a young woman that doesn't think it's gross. That is rare and when you just randomly walk up to girls, sorry, but you will mostly get rejection.
I don't know, look on a sugar daddy dating site or a gold digger dating site maybe?

I realize I am not the typical type of person that posts here and my problems pale in comparison to the genuine suffering that many here write about. I'm just a heavy drinking wh0re ch@ser quickly approaching old age who gets lonely from time to time.

Who said anything about the reason you are here? You don't need to justify that. You are here, that's all that matters, no one needs to question that and if they do, you certainly don't owe them an answer....well, except the mods, maybe. lol
As for whose problems pale in comparison to others..... Seriously? Just fresia off with that. It's NOT a competition. Does some people have problems worse than others? Maybe, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that we ALL struggle, whether it's every single second of every single day or just when one is sober. It does not matter, stop making it a competition.

 

[ardour]

Sorry, but when you want someone that is as niche as you want, you will mostly get rejection. I don't care how much money you have or how good you look.

Brad Pitt is 60. We can confidently assume plenty of young women would suspend any age related objections in his case. It's gross because aging usually means a major change in appearance and drop in attractiveness.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Brad Pitt is 60. We can confidently assume plenty of young women would suspend any age related objections in his case. It's gross because aging usually means a major change in appearance and drop in attractiveness.

Brad Pitt is famous, he has more options, simply because the entire world knows who he is. People flock to celebrities. Unsigned is not a celebrity and doesn't have a world wide fan base, so it's a different situation.

That's one reason people find it "gross," but definitely not the only one, there are so many factors involved in a situation like that. And there's a reason I put gross in quotations.