It's near hopeless if you're an average (or less) Iooking guy.

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Richard_39 said:
Wow, all 'em people fighting lol.

I still think a night a week at a bar is a better answer than 12 dating websites.

Besides which, when you're drunk enough...she looks cuter.

Considering the bar/nightclub scene has been my weekly social life of the past 8 months, I can personally confirm that you're better off on the dating sites. You're in there competing with a building full of alpha men, and dressed up women looking to attract the attention of said alpha's. Unless you're an alpha yourself, it ain't happening. And no. You can't fake being an alpha. Women will see right through that.
 
Not every woman wants an alpha....
Also, not every plan works for every person, so a bar here, a dating site there...I can personally confirm that "you're" better off trying EVERYTHING to figure out what works for you.
 
As long as this advice doesn't turn into "if you haven't tried it, you can't complain about the outcome", because that's really not fair.
A lot of people know that they don't like bars/clubs, and probably wouldn't like the people that are frequently there.
I don't like practicing sports and being "adventurous" in my spare time, so I wouldn't try to find a man in a hiking group or some honeysuckle... that's a weird place for flirting.
 
DarkSelene said:
As long as this advice doesn't turn into "if you haven't tried it, you can't complain about the outcome", because that's really not fair.
A lot of people know that they don't like bars/clubs, and probably wouldn't like the people that are frequently there.
I don't like practicing sports and being "adventurous" in my spare time, so I wouldn't try to find a man in a hiking group or some honeysuckle... that's a weird place for flirting.

Of course.  You should definitely stay away from places that make you uncomfortable or you don't care for the activity being done.  Personally, I already had an alcoholic, so I would likely never go into a bar/nightclub to meet a guy.  Not saying all of them are alcoholic ********, but there's always that chance, I don't care for alcohol (or the smell of it) and it's just not my scene.
 
Red_Wedding_Casualty said:
Considering the bar/nightclub scene has been my weekly social life of the past 8 months, I can personally confirm that you're better off on the dating sites. You're in there competing with a building full of alpha men, and dressed up women looking to attract the attention of said alpha's. Unless you're an alpha yourself, it ain't happening. And no. You can't fake being an alpha. Women will see right through that.

LOL NO idea. And you know what? Don't care either. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta...I see a cute girl I'd enjoy talking to, I go talk to her. If she flushes me after 5 minutes, her loss, I won't lose sleep over it. Alpha behavior? Sure doesn't look like a 6'4, 250 pounds of muscle rich, confident stallion staring back. Allow me to doubt it. But to wallow in self-pity has never been one of my traits if I'm actively seeking companionship.

Even if...well if you've read my other threads around, I'm pretty good at beating myself over the head.

HOWEVER, doesn't apply to dating. It's a WAR, gentlemen. It's us or them (here I mean women, other males are the mountain passes you have to go aroung to reach your targer). The enemy won't respect you if you flee at the first sign of a fight. So even if I go down with my ship, I'll go out guns blazing ;-)

Oh yes, I know, call me an eternal optimist, call me crazy, I know, been called all that lol. But better that than doing nothing.
 
TheRealCallie said:
Red_Wedding_Casualty said:
Guy pours his frustrated heart out. Callie promptly tells him to harden the fresia up. Imagine my shock.......

But I digress..... As far as 'looks' go, I feel that it would be disingenuous to date someone whom I wasn't attracted to physically. People here and elsewhere will often tell you, "it's what's inside that counts!" Callie will tell you, "Don't be so ******* shallow!" But, as someone said earlier: Unattractive appearances don't guarantee attractive personalities. I've seen some real shockers at the mall I work at. Yeah, those vibrant personalities really come out when they start abusing checkout operators over the price of a single bottle of milk. And more to the point: if we're supposed to pursue relationships based only on personalities, then you might as well just pursue friendships. I'm friends with quite a few women I'm not physically attracted to. It certainly doesn't make them lesser beings in my eyes. Actually dating one of them would lead to a very short, and unfulfilling relationship for both parties, because my heart wouldn't be fully invested, and they'd be able to pick up on that. And cue the insecurities about me only dating them out of pity, and the fear that I'd cut and run the moment someone better came along. And if this reasoning makes me shallow, then I'll take that one on the chest.

It's also possible that this reasoning contributes to why I've been single for the entirety of my life, and will remain so until my deathbed. But, I dare not dwell on that here. I know what that will net me.

Attraction is NOT always instant.  So yeah, if you've been around your friends for a while and know you aren't attracted to them, that's one thing, but to say you won't even give someone a chance, even if they aren't your usual type because you want things to be instantaneous, well, that's on you. 
It IS shallow to disregard someone simply because they aren't the typical "hot" person you go for.  Yes, it is your right to do so, but it's still shallow. 
Digress, my ass, but at least you didn't insult me.


Naizo said:
The assumption that most women want a beautiful man and vice versa is correct and factual. Those who would tell you that’s not true and lying to themselves. However, don’t be most people. Find someone who you are attracted to and is attracted to you. If your only attracted to “beautiful” people then you’ve accepted that challenge to find one that will be attracted to you in turn. Dont be picky but don’t let someone tell you you’re being picky either. Do what makes you happy. Try to fight for what you want.

Wait, I'm lying to myself now?  Would you like to take a look at my dating history?  Hell, the man I married wasn't a "beautiful" man and I wasn't attracted to him until like a month after we started dating.  But hey, maybe my entire life is a lie :O



I wasn’t referring to you, it was just a general attempt to help people who feel like they’re not attractive but who are attracted to “beautiful” people.

Is there someone out there for everyone? No. But there never was supposed to be. 

It’s been almost 4-5 years, I still consider my ex to be the most beautiful woman I’ve ever met. She’s older than me, we have very little in common, she’s hard wired to lie in an attempt to not hurt others and I’m hard wired to try to please others. It was never going to work. I don’t want anyone else though. So I decided I’d be alone. I want to be able to say on my deathbed my love was true. Even if hers wasn’t.


Naizo said:
TheRealCallie said:
Red_Wedding_Casualty said:
Guy pours his frustrated heart out. Callie promptly tells him to harden the fresia up. Imagine my shock.......

But I digress..... As far as 'looks' go, I feel that it would be disingenuous to date someone whom I wasn't attracted to physically. People here and elsewhere will often tell you, "it's what's inside that counts!" Callie will tell you, "Don't be so ******* shallow!" But, as someone said earlier: Unattractive appearances don't guarantee attractive personalities. I've seen some real shockers at the mall I work at. Yeah, those vibrant personalities really come out when they start abusing checkout operators over the price of a single bottle of milk. And more to the point: if we're supposed to pursue relationships based only on personalities, then you might as well just pursue friendships. I'm friends with quite a few women I'm not physically attracted to. It certainly doesn't make them lesser beings in my eyes. Actually dating one of them would lead to a very short, and unfulfilling relationship for both parties, because my heart wouldn't be fully invested, and they'd be able to pick up on that. And cue the insecurities about me only dating them out of pity, and the fear that I'd cut and run the moment someone better came along. And if this reasoning makes me shallow, then I'll take that one on the chest.

It's also possible that this reasoning contributes to why I've been single for the entirety of my life, and will remain so until my deathbed. But, I dare not dwell on that here. I know what that will net me.

Attraction is NOT always instant.  So yeah, if you've been around your friends for a while and know you aren't attracted to them, that's one thing, but to say you won't even give someone a chance, even if they aren't your usual type because you want things to be instantaneous, well, that's on you. 
It IS shallow to disregard someone simply because they aren't the typical "hot" person you go for.  Yes, it is your right to do so, but it's still shallow. 
Digress, my ass, but at least you didn't insult me.


Naizo said:
The assumption that most women want a beautiful man and vice versa is correct and factual. Those who would tell you that’s not true and lying to themselves. However, don’t be most people. Find someone who you are attracted to and is attracted to you. If your only attracted to “beautiful” people then you’ve accepted that challenge to find one that will be attracted to you in turn. Dont be picky but don’t let someone tell you you’re being picky either. Do what makes you happy. Try to fight for what you want.

Wait, I'm lying to myself now?  Would you like to take a look at my dating history?  Hell, the man I married wasn't a "beautiful" man and I wasn't attracted to him until like a month after we started dating.  But hey, maybe my entire life is a lie :O



I wasn’t referring to you, it was just a general attempt to help people who feel like they’re not attractive but who are attracted to “beautiful” people.

Is there someone out there for everyone? No. But there never was supposed to be. 

It’s been almost 4-5 years, I still consider my ex to be the most beautiful woman I’ve ever met. She’s older than me, we have very little in common, she’s hard wired to lie in an attempt to not hurt others and I’m hard wired to try to please others. It was never going to work. I don’t want anyone else though. So I decided I’d be alone. I want to be able to say on my deathbed my love was true. Even if hers wasn’t. Girls at work tell me I need a woman. I tell them I had what I wanted, nothing will replace that and I don’t want to try. I can’t act as though my ex exists because thinking of her causes me Great Depression, but I don’t seek out to find someone to replace that feeling. I tried that. I failed. If someone comes along that I like, good. If not, I’ll die proud of myself.




On mh phone so sorry for that truly messed up edit of my last post
 
michael2 said:
If you're average or less looking like me, I suggest coming to grips with the fact you just might be alone forever.  This isn't as bad of a fate as it may seem.  Single life has its perks.  Want to play the new videogame or binge watch the new TV show all Saturday?  How about go wherever you want whenever you want on a moment's notice.  You can do that single.  Of course I would much rather share my life with someone else, even at the cost of personal freedom.  

Anyways, average or less looking men, this is why I think you face near certain failure, unless you are willing to settle for someone even less average then you.

Hypergamy

Studies show women think 80% of men look below average.  That's right.  If you don't look "good" or have a 6 pack abs, your not even considered average.  Your demoted to below average.  And this isn't the top 20% of women being picky.  This is top to bottom.  That means an average looking woman tends to view another average looking man as below average, and thus, not desirable.

To put it simply, if 100 random single men were put on an island with 100 random single women, 80 women would fight over the top 20 men, leaving the other 80 guys alone to have the 20 least desirable women.

While this data is based on studies, I've seen evidence of it's reality in my life.  My brother is 25.  On a scale of 1-10, he is a 8 in terms of looks.  He is 6'1", 185 lbs, 6 pack abs, in great shape with strong arms and a nice face.  A great catch.  Women approach him randomly in public and GIVE their number to him unsolicited.  Sorry average looking guys, wish it was this easy for us.

So who is my brother dating now?  A 36 year old divorced mother of 2 who is a 5 in terms of looks.  She's even slightly overweight. Her desirability rating is far lower then my brother.  She's older, has kids, isn't in shape like him, and doesn't look as good.  Yet she's dating my brother.  This is hypergamy, a very real example of it.

Now, if she breaks up with my brother in the future, do you think she will give a guy who is a 5, same as her, in terms of looks, a chance?  No she thinks she deserves a 7 or 8.  This is why average guys are screwed.

Looking back at my crushes and women I've inquired of I never pursued someone who was better looking then me.  I consider myself to be a 5, and I've only really liked other women who were 5s or even 4s.  This was probably because subconsciously I knew what my reasonable limits were. It appears women, as a whole, think they deserve better then themselves.  Of course men fantasize about women who are 8s or 9s but I feel most men know they are unobtainable to them and are more then happy to settle with someone who is equal to them in terms of looks.

But that's the problem.  Women who are 5s tend to not give other men who are 5s attention.  The only time they do so seems to be out of desperation due to aging or needing a financial provider.  If a woman who is your equal in looks dates you, it's likely she feels that she is "settling" for you.

Right now I know someone who likes me.  I could ask her for her number and it would be good as mine.  The problem is, I'm a 5, and she's a 2.  She is over 100 lbs overweight with a below average face.  As an average looking man, who is not overweight, this is the type of options available to me.  Women who are 5s like me are pursuing men who are 7s or 8s.  

I get attention from women who are 2s or 3s, despite me being a 5.  I have never gotten serious attention from a woman who was a 5 or better.  Never. 

So my choice is to settle for a woman who is considerably less attractive then me, usually very obese and below average looking, or continue to be prepetually single.

So my question is for other average looking guys, has your experience been the same?  Do you find women who are less attractive then you are the only ones who give you a chance?

You're no different than those 80% fighting over the 20% since you won't give the 1's or 2's a chance.  They're probably posting somewhere in the cyberworld about you.  There is a saying in North Dakota - a woman who is a 3 or 4 anywhere else, is a "Wiliston 10."  (Look it up, it's interesting to see how looks are relative depending on where you live.)
 
morrowrd said:
You're no different than those 80% fighting over the 20% since you won't give the 1's or 2's a chance.  They're probably posting somewhere in the cyberworld about you.  There is a saying in North Dakota - a woman who is a 3 or 4 anywhere else, is a "Wiliston 10."  (Look it up, it's interesting to see how looks are relative depending on where you live.)

If we are talking about the premise of the OP then there is a difference. One side is just wanting to find someone on the same level as them. The other is only going for people that are objectively in a much higher league. Begging choosers. Unrealistic standards.

One side considers the bottom 80% as settling, the other side in your example considers the bottom 20% as settling. That is a pretty big difference imo.

I don't think the issue is that people have standards, the issue is how unrealistic and hypocritical some people can be with their standards.

Even the "Wiliston 10" concept that you mentioned can explain it. Take a normal person and make it extremely easy for them to constantly get attention and validation via social media or dating apps. Make them feel like there are limitless options. Suddenly their standards are are much higher than they really should be in reality.
 
Xpendable said:
Thanks for the censorship, btw.

I personally get offended by people who get offended by a video posted on forum that they 1) don't have to watch, 2) can stop at any time, 3) does not depict any images of graphic content... 

Could we please remove them all as well?
 
It has no place on this forum and no one knew what they were going to watch until you actually watch it. End of discussion.
 
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Sci-Fi said:
It has no place on this forum and no one knew what they were going to watch until you actually watch it.  End of discussion.

You know that saying end of discussion implies there is a discussion, I don't care that you deleted a video or what not, but this was on youtube, not some vague videohosting site or a porn site. 

This is a forum that by name alone implies that anyone here will not exactly fit the standard, ardour already watched (part of) it and gave his opinion, I second that opinion and also find it honeysuckle and wouldn't want to subject myself to more of that, so after a few minutes I skipped a it, and another bit and then all the bits left coming after the last bit I skipped I skipped as well.

I would not say I agree with X a lot, but this is censorship pure and simple, removing the option for others to watch a video and decide on their own if it's offensive and honeysuckle or if it's something they agree with.

P.S. My point being, we are not ******* children here, stop protecting us from everything that MIGHT be considered offensive!
 
TheRealCallie said:
But there ARE ******* children here...

Yes, so what! they have internet and can find that video on youtube themselves as well, and a lot worse than that.
Or de we all think the "I am over 18 years of age" button really works.
 
MisterLonely said:
TheRealCallie said:
But there ARE ******* children here...

Yes, so what! they have internet and can find that video on youtube themselves as well, and a lot worse than that.
Or de we all think the "I am over 18 years of age" button really works.

Yeah and they can also get their hands on drugs and alcohol if they really want to, does that mean they should have it handed to them?
 

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