It's near hopeless if you're an average (or less) Iooking guy.

[MisterLonely]

I have just given up all together. Period. At one point on line dating was legit but I don't think it is anymore. If the person is not a fake or old account, they are very likely a troll OR scammer. It is possible they aren't but the odds...as they say, are not in your favor. Like you I don't have a realistic chance of meeting anyone in the world I live in. I am surrounded by married men. If there are single men, respectfully there is typically a reason.

"If there are single men, respectfully there is typically a reason."

And the same is not true for women?

---

I get a lot of messages from men in their 20s, with chisled abs, who are full of them selves and looking to take advantage of attractive older women. I'm half way inclined to go on a date with one of these types, talk intellectually, to where they feel stupid and then leave them at the bar but nothing with the bill...

They probably just think they have a better chance with older women, also there are guys out there that are attracted to the "Milf" type

 

[EmilyFoxSeaton]

I have just given up all together. Period. At one point on line dating was legit but I don't think it is anymore. If the person is not a fake or old account, they are very likely a troll OR scammer. It is possible they aren't but the odds...as they say, are not in your favor. Like you I don't have a realistic chance of meeting anyone in the world I live in. I am surrounded by married men. If there are single men, respectfully there is typically a reason.

"If there are single men, respectfully there is typically a reason."

And the same is not true for women?

---

---

I didn't say that. But women typically value marriage while men on average want sex and then marriage if they have to.

 

[Seahorse]

Oh believe me, these chisled ab studs know exactly what they are after lol...and its not love and companionship

 

[MisterLonely]

^ I bet they have etter luck with others though

 

[ticaaa]

actualy its not about looks
from what i saw girls/women want someone that can make them laugh and can also be confident about himself
there are guys at my workplace that are below average looking 4-5 and they get alot of girls . How? they aproach the girl and talk to her they start flirting from the beginning its like they are not even afraid of rejection
i asked one of them "man arnt you afraid that some girl will reject you or slap you ? " and he sayd " that happened alot of times but who cares there are alot of girls that like this kind of stuff so its all about finding those girls that like it "
so yeah act like you dont give a fresia have a clean look dress nicely and keep trying

 

[Seahorse]

Its not all about looks, but I can tell you that in person a woman is just being polite to unwanted advances from from men. My older neighbour flirts with me all the time, its creepy but I'm not going to be rude to his face. Men know they can get away with it, so they do it.

 

[Seahorse]

Im clearly disgruntled about all this dating stuff, but at least get to vent on here.
I would say I'm a bit above average looking, have nice pictures of my self, and can write and spell lol.
You should see the majority of men who contact me online in regards to looks and the way they present themselves , not to mention not living near me or having nothing in common. So when a decent guy comes along I'm immediately suspicious of why he would be interested in me... Its funny and

 

[Xpendable]

I'm uglier than a penis scar.

 

[Volt]

[youtube]KyUupMamiic[/youtube]

 

[user 139760]

Oh believe me, these chisled ab studs know exactly what they are after lol...and its not love and companionship

I resent that.

Though I'm not chiseled anymore lol.

But one of the things I reproached women at the time, was the fact no one cared what I was thinking, only about me showing them their abs.
In that respect, I know exactly how objectified women feel. Because the reverse isn't different in the least.

 

[Seahorse]

Oh believe me, these chisled ab studs know exactly what they are after lol...and its not love and companionship

I resent that.

Though I'm not chiseled anymore lol.

But one of the things I reproached women at the time, was the fact no one cared what I was thinking, only about me showing them their abs.
In that respect, I know exactly how objectified women feel. Because the reverse isn't different in the least.

When the aforementioned ab selfie dude goes on to talk about how well endowed he is, had to lie on his profile that he's actually 22 not 45 because he's always been attracted to older women as they are more experienced.....you get the point

 

[user 139760]

When the aforementioned ab selfie dude goes on to talk about how well endowed he is, had to lie on his profile that he's actually 22 not 45 because he's always been attracted to older women as they are more experienced.....you get the point

LOL Yes, but that has nothing to do specifically with his chiseled abs, is it? More to do with the arrogant, or self-centered, or whatever he is small little boy inside.
Therein lies the difference.
I for one, used to train for me. Physically speaking, my goal was Chris Jericho at the time. Pretty close, too, I was maybe slightly less bulky around the biceps triceps. But I didn't need to brag, because I did it only to impress ME, not others. Don't have anything to prove to others.  I think therein lies the difference.
So when I was referred to a bulky ab dude, or got whistled one the street which happened once when I was around 17 and going to college, I wasn't flattered. I was rather disgusted. Because the whistle wasn't meant for me, it was meant at the object they thought the saw. I could have been the biggest prick to roam the Earth, or the wisest man who ever lived and it didn't matter. In the end, it never does.

People are shallow. I understand very well how other men feel. It's not restricted or exclusive to sex, but their assessement of women is very unfair and in essence, the same type of behavior as those girls had when wistling me; generalizing, objectifying, unhumanizing. Speaking without knowing and accounting for the infinitely vast differences between personalities of either sex.
Which is my initial point. Is it hopeless? Of course not. But if you're(general "you"'s, not specific you's) only looking at an object instead of a person, you,re going to be looking and not finding for a long, long time...

 

[Seahorse]

When the aforementioned ab selfie dude goes on to talk about how well endowed he is, had to lie on his profile that he's actually 22 not 45 because he's always been attracted to older women as they are more experienced.....you get the point

LOL Yes, but that has nothing to do specifically with his chiseled abs, is it? More to do with the arrogant, or self-centered, or whatever he is small little boy inside.
Therein lies the difference.
I for one, used to train for me. Physically speaking, my goal was Chris Jericho at the time. Pretty close, too, I was maybe slightly less bulky around the biceps triceps. But I didn't need to brag, because I did it only to impress ME, not others. Don't have anything to prove to others.  I think therein lies the difference.
So when I was referred to a bulky ab dude, or got whistled one the street which happened once when I was around 17 and going to college, I wasn't flattered. I was rather disgusted. Because the whistle wasn't meant for me, it was meant at the object they thought the saw. I could have been the biggest prick to roam the Earth, or the wisest man who ever lived and it didn't matter. In the end, it never does.

People are shallow. I understand very well how other men feel. It's not restricted or exclusive to sex, but their assessement of women is very unfair and in essence, the same type of behavior as those girls had when wistling me; generalizing, objectifying, unhumanizing. Speaking without knowing and accounting for the infinitely vast differences between personalities of either sex.
Which is my initial point. Is it hopeless? Of course not. But if you're(general "you"'s, not specific you's) only looking at an object instead of a person, you,re going to be looking and not finding for a long, long time...

I'm all for a nice shirtless picture while at the beach, pool or some appropriate setting where you wouldn't have a shirt on, same for girls bikini pics...I'm talking about the guy who's only pics are ones of his torso he took him self in his bathroom

---

When the aforementioned ab selfie dude goes on to talk about how well endowed he is, had to lie on his profile that he's actually 22 not 45 because he's always been attracted to older women as they are more experienced.....you get the point

LOL Yes, but that has nothing to do specifically with his chiseled abs, is it? More to do with the arrogant, or self-centered, or whatever he is small little boy inside.
Therein lies the difference.
I for one, used to train for me. Physically speaking, my goal was Chris Jericho at the time. Pretty close, too, I was maybe slightly less bulky around the biceps triceps. But I didn't need to brag, because I did it only to impress ME, not others. Don't have anything to prove to others.  I think therein lies the difference.
So when I was referred to a bulky ab dude, or got whistled one the street which happened once when I was around 17 and going to college, I wasn't flattered. I was rather disgusted. Because the whistle wasn't meant for me, it was meant at the object they thought the saw. I could have been the biggest prick to roam the Earth, or the wisest man who ever lived and it didn't matter. In the end, it never does.

People are shallow. I understand very well how other men feel. It's not restricted or exclusive to sex, but their assessement of women is very unfair and in essence, the same type of behavior as those girls had when wistling me; generalizing, objectifying, unhumanizing. Speaking without knowing and accounting for the infinitely vast differences between personalities of either sex.
Which is my initial point. Is it hopeless? Of course not. But if you're(general "you"'s, not specific you's) only looking at an object instead of a person, you,re going to be looking and not finding for a long, long time...

I'm all for a nice shirtless picture while at the beach, pool or some appropriate setting where you wouldn't have a shirt on, same for girls bikini pics...I'm talking about the guy who's only pics are ones of his torso he took him self in his bathroom

Plus, I'm 44 and prefer a nice "dad bod" these days. A bit of a tummy, but still has decent legs, chest and arms

 

[user 139760]

I'm all for a nice shirtless picture while at the beach, pool or some appropriate setting where you wouldn't have a shirt on, same for girls bikini pics...I'm talking about the guy who's only pics are ones of his torso he took him self in his bathroom

Well, it's probably only for that dating site and only because he thinks, or was told, that's what works.
I doubt he's got that on his nightstand. When I used to frequent POF, since that's all I was seeing, I put the nerdiest picture of myself on it (I believe I was sitting in front of my then functional webcame with my daughter's blue doggy hat on my head and a very moronic face being made) I could find. Of course, I didn't get much hits, but those that I did...those were keepers.
That's a link many miss.
And if he does have pictures of himself on his nightsand....RUN lol.

What I mean is the big built stereotype is just that. A stereotype. Some people fall in it and others don't. But we don't seem to like to remind ourselves of that. Certainly we don't act it.

 

[Seahorse]

When the aforementioned ab selfie dude goes on to talk about how well endowed he is, had to lie on his profile that he's actually 22 not 45 because he's always been attracted to older women as they are more experienced.....you get the point

LOL Yes, but that has nothing to do specifically with his chiseled abs, is it? More to do with the arrogant, or self-centered, or whatever he is small little boy inside.
Therein lies the difference.
I for one, used to train for me. Physically speaking, my goal was Chris Jericho at the time. Pretty close, too, I was maybe slightly less bulky around the biceps triceps. But I didn't need to brag, because I did it only to impress ME, not others. Don't have anything to prove to others.  I think therein lies the difference.
So when I was referred to a bulky ab dude, or got whistled one the street which happened once when I was around 17 and going to college, I wasn't flattered. I was rather disgusted. Because the whistle wasn't meant for me, it was meant at the object they thought the saw. I could have been the biggest prick to roam the Earth, or the wisest man who ever lived and it didn't matter. In the end, it never does.

People are shallow. I understand very well how other men feel. It's not restricted or exclusive to sex, but their assessement of women is very unfair and in essence, the same type of behavior as those girls had when wistling me; generalizing, objectifying, unhumanizing. Speaking without knowing and accounting for the infinitely vast differences between personalities of either sex.
Which is my initial point. Is it hopeless? Of course not. But if you're(general "you"'s, not specific you's) only looking at an object instead of a person, you,re going to be looking and not finding for a long, long time...

The walls of Jericho

 

[user 139760]

The walls of Jericho

LOL I only had one match before I hurt myself. I had planed to use the Liontamer as my finisher, but since it was my first I was pinned ;-) Right after that I tore my pec. That was about 15-20 years ago, so that was over lol. I know he criticized it, but I liked the look, with the whole knee on the head thing.

 

[Red_Wedding_Casualty]

I decided to test the waters again and replied to a few complimentary messages from men who ignored that im looking for some one who lives in my town. I thanked them for the compliment and asked if they could do me a favor and tell me why they contacted me even though they don't live near by. Here are the replies.
1. I don't give a honeysuckle what your preferences are.
2. Haha. Sorry, I only looked at your pictures.
3. Your going to die alone you filthy skank.

This takes me back to that one time I made a fake female profile. Granted, I never even got to write up an actual profile before the inbox got lit up, but it probably didn't really matter. The problem is that most of us manthings are visual creatures, so when it comes to online dating, we're going to be drawn to visually appealing pictures. Yes, this hardwiring can be overwritten through sheer willpower, but most of us are not inclined to do so. We're also quite stupid as well, as I saw first hand with my fake profile. I'd written ABSOLUTELY nothing about myself on that profile, but based on a few pictures I ganked from a random facebook profile, 150 guys decided I was worth messaging within the first 24 hours of me making that profile. In Seahorse's case, she actually took the time to make a profile, and learnt that clearly the men messaging her didn't give a honeysuckle what she had to say. 

This is what broke online dating for me. I could encounter a profile I liked, read that profile, and tailor my opening message to its contents, and it wouldn't matter. My message would be buried among the thousands of 'hey sexi ' messages. There are dating sites now that will only allow females to send opening messages. Granted, I'd expect it to yield as much as a regular dating site, but if I'm at least provided a chart of metrics so I can gauge how many people are passing me over, I'd much prefer that.

 

[user 139760]

This takes me back to that one time I made a fake female profile. Granted, I never even got to write up an actual profile before the inbox got lit up, but it probably didn't really matter. The problem is that most of us manthings are visual creatures, so when it comes to online dating, we're going to be drawn to visually appealing pictures. Yes, this hardwiring can be overwritten through sheer willpower, but most of us are not inclined to do so. We're also quite stupid as well, as I saw first hand with my fake profile. I'd written ABSOLUTELY nothing about myself on that profile, but based on a few pictures I ganked from a random facebook profile, 150 guys decided I was worth messaging within the first 24 hours of me making that profile. In Seahorse's case, she actually took the time to make a profile, and learnt that clearly the men messaging her didn't give a honeysuckle what she had to say. 

This is what broke online dating for me. I could encounter a profile I liked, read that profile, and tailor my opening message to its contents, and it wouldn't matter. My message would be buried among the thousands of 'hey sexi ' messages. There are dating sites now that will only allow females to send opening messages. Granted, I'd expect it to yield as much as a regular dating site, but if I'm at least provided a chart of metrics so I can gauge how many people are passing me over, I'd much prefer that.

LOL Well, I never did the experience, but I don't doubt the accuracy of it. I sadly wish I could say I was surprised.
And you know, just to add to the point...on dating websites, there's profiles of fake women who are actually men who make profiles with only a cute pic to test stuff, did you know that? lol ;-)
Artificiality breeds some back, me thinks. Like a lot of stuff about the internet when it was first though of in what, the 70's and 80's? In theory, dating sites are a great idea. Mix in Man (with a capital M) in it however, it quickly becomes a load of crap. You have to get lucky, plain and simple, to find someone that's actually looking for something stable. No wonder men AND women are discouraged of it and so critical of each other, they're both on the receiving end of a ton of bull...

 

[Enpatsu No Shakugan]

If you're average or less looking like me, I suggest coming to grips with the fact you just might be alone forever.  This isn't as bad of a fate as it may seem.  Single life has its perks.  Want to play the new videogame or binge watch the new TV show all Saturday?  How about go wherever you want whenever you want on a moment's notice.  You can do that single.  Of course I would much rather share my life with someone else, even at the cost of personal freedom.  

Anyways, average or less looking men, this is why I think you face near certain failure, unless you are willing to settle for someone even less average then you.

Hypergamy

Studies show women think 80% of men look below average.  That's right.  If you don't look "good" or have a 6 pack abs, your not even considered average.  Your demoted to below average.  And this isn't the top 20% of women being picky.  This is top to bottom.  That means an average looking woman tends to view another average looking man as below average, and thus, not desirable.

To put it simply, if 100 random single men were put on an island with 100 random single women, 80 women would fight over the top 20 men, leaving the other 80 guys alone to have the 20 least desirable women.

While this data is based on studies, I've seen evidence of it's reality in my life.  My brother is 25.  On a scale of 1-10, he is a 8 in terms of looks.  He is 6'1", 185 lbs, 6 pack abs, in great shape with strong arms and a nice face.  A great catch.  Women approach him randomly in public and GIVE their number to him unsolicited.  Sorry average looking guys, wish it was this easy for us.

So who is my brother dating now?  A 36 year old divorced mother of 2 who is a 5 in terms of looks.  She's even slightly overweight. Her desirability rating is far lower then my brother.  She's older, has kids, isn't in shape like him, and doesn't look as good.  Yet she's dating my brother.  This is hypergamy, a very real example of it.

Now, if she breaks up with my brother in the future, do you think she will give a guy who is a 5, same as her, in terms of looks, a chance?  No she thinks she deserves a 7 or 8.  This is why average guys are screwed.

Looking back at my crushes and women I've inquired of I never pursued someone who was better looking then me.  I consider myself to be a 5, and I've only really liked other women who were 5s or even 4s.  This was probably because subconsciously I knew what my reasonable limits were. It appears women, as a whole, think they deserve better then themselves.  Of course men fantasize about women who are 8s or 9s but I feel most men know they are unobtainable to them and are more then happy to settle with someone who is equal to them in terms of looks.

But that's the problem.  Women who are 5s tend to not give other men who are 5s attention.  The only time they do so seems to be out of desperation due to aging or needing a financial provider.  If a woman who is your equal in looks dates you, it's likely she feels that she is "settling" for you.

Right now I know someone who likes me.  I could ask her for her number and it would be good as mine.  The problem is, I'm a 5, and she's a 2.  She is over 100 lbs overweight with a below average face.  As an average looking man, who is not overweight, this is the type of options available to me.  Women who are 5s like me are pursuing men who are 7s or 8s.  

I get attention from women who are 2s or 3s, despite me being a 5.  I have never gotten serious attention from a woman who was a 5 or better.  Never. 

So my choice is to settle for a woman who is considerably less attractive then me, usually very obese and below average looking, or continue to be prepetually single.

So my question is for other average looking guys, has your experience been the same?  Do you find women who are less attractive then you are the only ones who give you a chance?

This is a very self destructive post to me.
You know that there are a lot of women who view themselves as unattractive too, even when they're not? I'd garner way more than 80%, whether it's true or not, feel that way, if only due to impossible standards of beauty.

I'm not saying you have to set your bar low to find anything, but rather just don't focus on looks.

Men and women both get painted so unfairly; that men only want sex and that women only want the successful models, and it's not true. Some are like that, but most aren't. We're all just people who want a connection and I find most women could literally not care less whatsoever about a guy's looks.

So don't think everything is so hopeless for you as a guy. It's not. You never know what's around the bend. Try and find a girl you genuinely click with and worry about looks later.

 

[MisterLonely]

You know that there are a lot of women who view themselves as unattractive too, even when they're not? I'd garner way more than 80%, whether it's true or not, feel that way, if only due to impossible standards of beauty.

I'm not saying you have to set your bar low to find anything, but rather just don't focus on looks.

Men and women both get painted so unfairly; that men only want sex and that women only want the successful models, and it's not true. Some are like that, but most aren't. We're all just people who want a connection and I find most women could literally not care less whatsoever about a guy's looks.

So don't think everything is so hopeless for you as a guy. It's not. You never know what's around the bend. Try and find a girl you genuinely click with and worry about looks later.

I hate to say it but you are both right and wrong, there is no real way to determine the factors people hold in high value, and the way some people act is just that, an act... they can say one thing and be nice while they know they would never be with someone "like that".

But yes thee are also those that value personality, common interests and humour above looks and status, but if you've run into the first kind by nothing more than a pure streak of misfortune, it changes ones perspective, and those good qualities might get lost in bitterness and anger, or depression and anxiety.

Avoiding or breaking free from that is key, because as much as we all might hate to admit it, the biggest limiting factor is us ourselves. 
(this all can be applied for both genders and attack helicopters alike)