When "yourself" just isn't good enough

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Okonkwo

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Hello everyone,

I've noticed that common advice given to romantically challenged men tends to fall under one of two categories:

  • Just be yourself. The right woman will come along who will like you for who you are.
  • Improve youself. Bulk up. Become more useful. Become what the majority of women desire.

Those who suggest the former tend to be the good guys, while those who suggest the latter tend to be the bad guys. Indeed, just being yourself can work in some cases. Maybe he's just too uptight, nervous, or fake around women. Indeed, in this case, maybe all he has to do is relax more.

But there is another class of men. Men who have something so fundamentally wrong with them that they have a better chance of being struck by lightning than finding a woman who likes them for who they are. It might be that they just don't have enough testosterone, or maybe there is something genetically wrong with them that makes them not quite a man. Maybe they were abused or bullied as a child, and that makes it difficult for them to assert themselves to other human beings. Whatever it is, while it may not be their fault, it is their problem.

I confess that I once fell under this unfortunate category of men. Perhaps I still do. I first realized I had trouble attracting women when I was nineteen years old. I reached out to family members for advice. They assured me that the right women would come along and all my troubles would be over. I tried this approach for two years. I wasn't passive, either. I asked a total of thirteen women out. All thirteen made it very clear that they had no interest in a relationship with me. I joined a dating site. I carefully crafted a profile that I felt accurately displayed who I was as a person. I made it a goal to send out one message a day until something happened. I sent out around five hundred messages. I got a total of four replies which I'm reasonably certain weren't SPAM. None of those four women replied to my secondary reply.

At this point, it was clear to me that something wasn't right. Friends and family continued to give me the tried and true advice that the right woman would eventually come along. She never did. I had two options:

  • Wait for the right woman to come along.
  • Change myself so that women find me attractive.

The former seemed unlikely to happen to me. After two years of rejection, I made the decision to change myself. I switched majors from Computer Science to Business Administration. I threw away all my video games, star wars videos, geeky t-shirts, science magazines, and anything else geeky that I owned. I started working out. I started drinking and going to parties. I found more socially acceptable hobbies, such as playing basketball and rugby. In summary, I became a man.

It worked. Women suddenly found me attractive. Instead of being the scrawny geeky kid that women would make fun of their friends for associating with me, I became the man that women would say, "Can you introduce me to him?" I found my first girlfriend around three months after I made the decision to change myself. In a perfect world, being myself would have worked. Hell, I could have even found a woman who shared my geeky interests. Unfortunately, that is far from the world that we live in.

Changing myself has definitely improved my life for the better. As a manager, I now supervise around fifty programmers. They spent their time in college struggling through their Computer Science courses. In the end, they will be rewarded, right? They'll make more money and have a better job than the jock who slept through class, right? Well, these programmers now work around 70 hours a week with little opportunity of advancement and a high chance of being laid off when their project is over. As their manager, I generally work 40 hours a week and earn a higher salary than they do. Were they rewarded? You be the judge.

I propose that instead of the tried and true advice of "being yourself", it is more helpful to encourage romantically frustrated men to conform to what women want them to be. Conforming will save them frustration, and will improve their lives for the better.

That's all.
 
I give the second kind of advice, and I'm a good guy, not a bad guy.

Romantically challenged men need to accept some uncomfortable truths about how human biology works.
 
"Just be yourself" is perfect advice. There's nothing wrong with self-improvement, either, but do so because it's what you want, not what you think others want.

Here's the trick: Before you can "just be yourself" you must know who "yourself" is.
 
ChiCowboy said:
"Just be yourself" is perfect advice. There's nothing wrong with self-improvement, either, but do so because it's what you want, not what you think others want.

Here's the trick: Before you can "just be yourself" you must know who "yourself" is.

Exactly, you shouldnt try and change who you are, what you enjoy as an individual, its what makes you, you. Infact anyone who ridicules someone for their interest's is not worth it in my opinion... it is incredibly immature!
 
You know, I found that over the past few years as I grew in to adulthood and started working and got out in the world, my geeky tendancies sort of took a backseat to other things. I don't think I've abandoned them completely; I still play video games now and then, I love literature and the like. But my list of interests -has- definitely grown; you don't have to sacrifice one for the other. It's actually pretty fun and enriching to throw off the shackles of stereotypes and just try a little bit of everything. I felt very freed when I realized that working out, mountain biking, and camping weren't "jock" things or "redneck" things, and appreciating coffee wasn't a "yuppie" thing. They were -my- things, just new parts of my saga.

I still can't bring myself to go out drinking though. I can have a shot of something with mature adult friends now and then, and I'm no longer abjectly against maybe having a beer (though I never have), but regardless of how often partiers get laid or how many friends quasi-loyal acquaintances they have, I still see them as weak, and frequently slaves to addiction. All of society is, which is why it gains them acceptance. But weakness and enthrallment on a universal scale are still weakness and enthrallment. In that regard, it is far more fulfilling to me in a spiritual way than the extra sex ever would be. I am a sovereign. To climb a mountain, to behold the skyline and take in the crisp air, will always be superior to throwing one's self in to the writhing mass of filth at the bottom and bathing in the stench.

I think when I have a place to myself again I'll probably play more video games and the like, and do some of the things that are more personal to me (I'd love to have a saltwater aquarium and a few loaded bookshelves, for instance). Communal living at a fire station just doesn't allow for those things lol. At the same time though, it's been a growth experience. I live with minimal personal possessions, and I kind of like it. My life is more 'mobile', so to speak, and there is a certain feeling of freedom that comes with that which I didn't have living in an apartment. Some days I can picture myself living this way for years, until I am too old for the fight, and be perfectly happy.

That's getting a little off topic though I guess.
 
Okonkwo -- THANK YOU!!

Brian said:
Communal living at a fire station just doesn't allow for those things lol. At the same time though, it's been a growth experience. I live with minimal personal possessions, and I kind of like it. My life is more 'mobile', so to speak, and there is a certain feeling of freedom that comes with that which I didn't have living in an apartment. Some days I can picture myself living this way for years, until I am too old for the fight, and be perfectly happy.

That's getting a little off topic though I guess.

I think becoming a fire fighter is a fantastic growth experience for a man


SocratesX said:
I give the second kind of advice, and I'm a good guy, not a bad guy.

Romantically challenged men need to accept some uncomfortable truths about how human biology works.

I don't think he's saying that he thinks we're the bad guys. Everyone else does.
 
Mary Mary said:
I think becoming a fire fighter is a fantastic growth experience for a man

I genuinely, honestly recommend it to any lonely, awkward, low self esteem man (or woman, I know some fantastic firewomen) who is within 10 miles of a department with any sort of Volunteer or Station Residency program. Station Residencies are especially cool because you get a FREE place to live for your time commitment...they're fairly common around my area, not so much in some other places.

I wish I had made a video from day one. I was one of the quiet loser kids in school, very few friends and they were just like me. Got made fun of. Never played any sports. Not exactly strong or fearless.

It took more than a year of being on the department, but it brought me out of my shell and built me up. And you meet all sorts of great people doing it; not just meathead jocks...usually those sorts are too dumb or cocky to be in the business. Actually, starting out, modesty and humility are incredibly valuable traits. You make lifelong friends, you build courage, you learn teamwork. It looks great on a resume and you get GREAT STORIES OUT OF IT. When anybody here talks about social capital, this is like a goldmine of it.

Like I said in another thread today, anybody who is capable of learning, can get in to moderately decent shape, and is brave enough to trust their peers and their instructor to lead them safely, can be a great firefighter. That's what I tell the ones that are greener than me. Trust me, and train hard. That's all there is to it.

Not to mention that most all volunteer or combination (career + volunteer) departments are terribly shorthanded, and most of the active guys in some places are getting on in years. They literally -need- young, energetic bodies to fill in the ranks. I would kick a puppy to get about 4 guys my age on my department who were really in to it, and I would sacrifice countless children in the fashion of the ancient Aztecs if I could get two station residents my age or so to live at my station and give me a full first-out engine company.
 
What a well written post.
Good advice without the IN-YOUR-FACE attitude that another member is so fond of.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say you have to throw out your nerdy shirts and hobbies to "become a man." A TRUE man would be comfortable enough with himself to understand that he could improve some things and still hold on to what was close to his heart and interests.

Yeah, I think guys should work out. But not because it will make them fit in socially. They should do it because it's healthy and because they want to live a long time, and they want to give positive years of a healthy life to their friends and loved ones. Same with hygiene. As far as clothing... ehh I've seen plenty of hot women with guys in rags, so clothing isn't really an issue. All you need to do is find clothing that suits your personality, that's all. Dress like who you feel you are; don't try to hold to any Armani or... fresia, GAP fashion expectations from society.

I think in order to be a man you have to have a life goal, or at least adhere to a life belief of some sort. I don't exactly know if that's required to be a man, but it seems like all of the best men I've ever known have been strong in their beliefs and goals and have known where they want to go, at least generally speaking. Like... Belief in God or maybe just a general belief in improving oneself in whatever way possible. Things like that.

ABOVE ALL, I think that there is one thing that makes a man a man:

And that is that no matter what comes, he will STAND AND FACE IT. Be it death, be it marriage, be it getting fired... a man must stand on his feet and face what comes to him. No cowering, no excuses. Fear is not a reason to hide. Be a man; stand and deal with it to the best of your ability. There's no shame in failure. There is only shame in NOT TRYING.

That's how my ailing eyes see it, anyway.
 
:rolleyes2: Well I am a programmer I do not work more than I have to. I rotfl lutes than my managers I know that much. The reality if the matter is that so manager is fast easier to replace than a programmer. Just think about how many people get a business administration degree versus how many computer science degrees are earned.

:rolleyes: anyway onto the point of this thread. I an glad to side someone else succeeding with changing. I am taking a different route. The main difference being I am not giving up my geeky side. I am just going to make it work for me. However, right now losing weight is more important to me. As I was not the scrawny gel. I was/am the fat one.

Your message helps to motivate me to keep walking down this path. I hope your message reaches all the perpetually single guys on this forum.
 
Brian said:
Mary Mary said:
I think becoming a fire fighter is a fantastic growth experience for a man

I genuinely, honestly recommend it to any lonely, awkward, low self esteem man (or woman, I know some fantastic firewomen) who is within 10 miles of a department with any sort of Volunteer or Station Residency program. Station Residencies are especially cool because you get a FREE place to live for your time commitment...they're fairly common around my area, not so much in some other places.

I wish I had made a video from day one. I was one of the quiet loser kids in school, very few friends and they were just like me. Got made fun of. Never played any sports. Not exactly strong or fearless.

It took more than a year of being on the department, but it brought me out of my shell and built me up. And you meet all sorts of great people doing it; not just meathead jocks...usually those sorts are too dumb or cocky to be in the business. Actually, starting out, modesty and humility are incredibly valuable traits. You make lifelong friends, you build courage, you learn teamwork. It looks great on a resume and you get GREAT STORIES OUT OF IT. When anybody here talks about social capital, this is like a goldmine of it.

Like I said in another thread today, anybody who is capable of learning, can get in to moderately decent shape, and is brave enough to trust their peers and their instructor to lead them safely, can be a great firefighter. That's what I tell the ones that are greener than me. Trust me, and train hard. That's all there is to it.

Not to mention that most all volunteer or combination (career + volunteer) departments are terribly shorthanded, and most of the active guys in some places are getting on in years. They literally -need- young, energetic bodies to fill in the ranks. I would kick a puppy to get about 4 guys my age on my department who were really in to it, and I would sacrifice countless children in the fashion of the ancient Aztecs if I could get two station residents my age or so to live at my station and give me a full first-out engine company.

You know what? I'm going to steal your advice. This sounds like really good advice to give.
 
I guess so, yeah, in a way. I think we just have different attitudes about it, and/or possibly different communication styles.
 
Believe me, you need to stay true to who you are. Never EVER change who you are. It is important to evolve as a person, but never change who you are just to please people.

Trust me, I have learnt it the hard painful way
 
God **** it...X. U too Brain.
Ya fucken dorks.lol.

Havnt U heard..U dont give out winning combinations to or competiors...

N for Mr. Living N d wild country....
U dont tell everyone the best fishing sopt.
 
@the-alchemist: The question I would pose, did you really change? After all if you did really change you would not have had such a bad experience. Part of change is letting go of the past. You cannot really change until you do that.

@Lonesome Crow: What is so wrong with helping others out? After all how many people on this forum live
next door to you?
 
Brian said:
I felt very freed when I realized that working out, mountain biking, and camping weren't "jock" things or "redneck" things, and appreciating coffee wasn't a "yuppie" thing. They were -my- things, just new parts of my saga.

a very good point. growing to enjoy new things and experiences is great. one thing that comes to mind for me is my changing taste in music.

Brian said:
it is far more fulfilling to me in a spiritual way than the extra sex ever would be. I am a sovereign. To climb a mountain, to behold the skyline and take in the crisp air, will always be superior to throwing one's self in to the writhing mass of filth at the bottom and bathing in the stench.

I am with you all the way here! a great hike beats out a binge party any day.

Badjedidude said:
ABOVE ALL, I think that there is one thing that makes a man a man:

And that is that no matter what comes, he will STAND AND FACE IT. Be it death, be it marriage, be it getting fired... a man must stand on his feet and face what comes to him. No cowering, no excuses. Fear is not a reason to hide. Be a man; stand and deal with it to the best of your ability. There's no shame in failure. There is only shame in NOT TRYING.

That's how my ailing eyes see it, anyway.

wow, this is a really awesome definition. face your fears head on! feel the rush!
 
Cathedral said:
This topic is full of honeysuckle. Give me liberty to be who I am or give me DEATH!

Well don't go to college then or read any books, because your opinion on something might change or you might learn more about a given topic, and then you're different from how you used to be. Don't try any new foods ever, you might like one of them and change who you are. Don't ever leave your daily routine and don't ever try anything new, you might change who you are.

Sorry to sound snarky, but I feel like some people have taken things way past preservation of core ideals and principles and are bordering on xenophobia. :/ Do you seriously never even want to try doing something new or explore different interests? If I had 'stayed who I was' from the time I was a teenager and never considered new possibilities, I would never have found this career that I love so much or found the brotherhood that comes with it. I'd probably be languishing in an office cubicle. I thought that was 'who I was' back then because it fit the stupid stereotype I ascribed to my self; it took risk and exploration to find out what my path really was. But in spite of it all, I'm STILL an extremely caring individual, I still uphold the ideal of honesty in my dealings, and I still value core qualities such as intelligence and a solid work ethic. If anything, branching out in my life and experiencing new things have only strengthened my resolve in all of the above, and that earns guys like you and me a lot of respect.

You know what I've found? And this applies in general to everybody here... people like us know what it's like to be marginalized, to be made fun of and purposefully excluded. That means that we can recognize when somebody is feeling that way, or at risk of being left out. And I honeysuckle you not, once we conquer the things that are holding us back and rise to our true potential, once we build ourselves up to be able to talk to people and to find and maintain friendships, we have a serious advantage in the workplace or in any other group of people.

I've found myself at work-related classes or conferences here in my 'home area' where people from other places come for the event. They don't know anybody here and as you and I know, that's one of the worst feelings in the world. Every time, I invite them to join me and whoever I'm with for lunch, and you always see the relief on their face to be included.

Same goes for fire tests. Everyone at a given table is always nervous and antsy and doesn't really talk to each other even though we're sitting there for a half hour before the test is even handed out! So I strike up a conversation. We share some jokes, relate our anxiety, and then we all feel better. But you have to have lived the feeling to recognize it.

I know, Cathedral, that you claim a history of autism and state you are crippled by it. I apologize in advance if you feel the above does not work for you; I wanted to get it out anyway in case someone can take something from it.

It's not like you're removing flour from the cake. You're just adding a little coconut to the frosting, and slathering a layer of cream cheese in the middle.

Now instead of a birthday cake, it's German chocolate cheese cake. And go on, tell me you wouldn't pick the latter over the former. It's freakin' delicious. Freakin' cream cheese, man.
 

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