Bad Boy vs Nice Guy

[TheRealCallie]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be. How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW? Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

 

[EveWasFramed]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be.  How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW?  Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be.  How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW?  Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

There are a lot of "bad boys" in my social circle.  I grew up with them, I know them well.  Appearances can be deceiving, don't judge all based on a few.  And certainly don't judge them based on their appearances, if that's what you are doing.  I'd wager a lot of the people you (generalized you) are classifying as "bad boys" are actually very good men.

 

[Paraiyar]

Plenty of my friends who have girlfriends are decent guys. Just forget this whole stupid dichotomy and start doing more for yourself.

Sure I know friends and acquaintances with partners, who are decent and appear nothing like the negative arsehole stereotype. Still, we are talking about general patterns here, and you don't what people are like in the context of their relationship, away from friends and family.

Even then, I don't think it's necessarily that accurate on a more general level. People with all kinds of tempraments and personalities get into relationships. And your last observation could easily be applied in reverse, we don't know how these so called bad boys actually treat their partners.

Regardless, it just seems like Ska is obsessed with this dichotomy to the point where it's holding him back in life.

 

[EveWasFramed]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be.  How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW?  Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

There are a lot of "bad boys" in my social circle.  I grew up with them, I know them well.  Appearances can be deceiving, don't judge all based on a few.  And certainly don't judge them based on their appearances, if that's what you are doing.  I'd wager a lot of the people you (generalized you) are classifying as "bad boys" are actually very good men.

Oh no...allow me to clarify. I should have been more specific. I put bad guys in quotes - I was referring to his definition of one - not my own personal opinion. I've known very few men that truly fit his stereotype. I do know quite a few that  might be called that, but are decent, hardworking family men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be.  How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW?  Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

There are a lot of "bad boys" in my social circle.  I grew up with them, I know them well.  Appearances can be deceiving, don't judge all based on a few.  And certainly don't judge them based on their appearances, if that's what you are doing.  I'd wager a lot of the people you (generalized you) are classifying as "bad boys" are actually very good men.

Oh no...allow me to clarify. I should have been more specific. I put bad guys in quotes - I was referring to his definition of one - not my own personal opinion. I've known very few men that truly fit his stereotype. I do know quite a few that  might be called that, but are decent, hardworking family men.

Yeah, I know what you meant, I was just expanding on both yours and mine.

 

[EveWasFramed]

Okay, you two (ardour and ska) are talking about stereotypes and how it appears to be.  How many "bad boys" do you actually KNOW?  Not just pass on the street and observe, but actually KNOW.

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

There are a lot of "bad boys" in my social circle.  I grew up with them, I know them well.  Appearances can be deceiving, don't judge all based on a few.  And certainly don't judge them based on their appearances, if that's what you are doing.  I'd wager a lot of the people you (generalized you) are classifying as "bad boys" are actually very good men.

Oh no...allow me to clarify. I should have been more specific. I put bad guys in quotes - I was referring to his definition of one - not my own personal opinion. I've known very few men that truly fit his stereotype. I do know quite a few that  might be called that, but are decent, hardworking family men.

Yeah, I know what you meant, I was just expanding on both yours and mine.

Oh ok, lol. Thought you were scolding me. :club:
<3

 

[TheRealCallie]

I was going to post anything else here, but I was sitting here, trying to think of anyone I knew who qualifies as a "bad guy". I've certainly met a couple of them in the past, but they have been few and far between. No one I know today would fit the stereotype. 
I'm certainly not saying they don't exist - just that I wonder how many there actually are in someone's direct social circle. I suppose if you're unfortunate enough to only be around that type, you'd probably feel like some of the folks here in this thread.

There are a lot of "bad boys" in my social circle.  I grew up with them, I know them well.  Appearances can be deceiving, don't judge all based on a few.  And certainly don't judge them based on their appearances, if that's what you are doing.  I'd wager a lot of the people you (generalized you) are classifying as "bad boys" are actually very good men.

Oh no...allow me to clarify. I should have been more specific. I put bad guys in quotes - I was referring to his definition of one - not my own personal opinion. I've known very few men that truly fit his stereotype. I do know quite a few that  might be called that, but are decent, hardworking family men.

Yeah, I know what you meant, I was just expanding on both yours and mine.

Oh ok, lol. Thought you were scolding me. :club:
<3

No, I'll do that later :club:

 

[ardour]

I also grew up around what you might call bad boys I guess. None of them remained single btw. They might have changed since: moderated their attitudes to be more socially acceptable, sure, but altogether different, no, don't think so.

Skafish might be obsessed but he is still pointing out a social dynamic that won't go away. Regardless of the stereotype, which verges on the silly/comical at times, I don't think it's pushing it to say that a majority of men would be reluctant to express vulnerability with a partner.

 

[TheSkaFish]

As far as the judging goes, I've judged them based on character. How they carry themselves, the way they look, the things they do. So far I haven't been wrong.

And look at the news especially up to the election. A lot of the time, it's the same kind of person at the center of the fistfights, trying to provoke fights and saying dumb things. I remember watching that thinking that this is only hardening my stereotype even more.

Finally, let me just ask you all this:

What is the point in looking, talking, and acting hardcore, if you're not actually going to be hardcore? You know what I mean, the tattoos, biker/death metal outfits, skulls and Satanic imagery, etc.

The way I see it, they either are dangerous types, or they want to borrow a bit of their mojo so they can seem "edgy" and rebellious, and appeal to women more. I think there are more of the latter type, the pretenders, than actual criminals. But I still think the pretenders are bullshit because it's fake. And I just wonder what these guys do when they meet someone even tougher than them? Does their whole identity shatter since they've been beaten at their own game? Do they back down to the the scarier, more hardcore guy? Or do they try to show him up and risk death or jail? Eventually in order to stay on top they'd have to drink and drug harder, be more violent, just make worse choices until they wind up in jail or worse. That's what it leads to, and why I could never do it.

---

I also grew up around "bad boys". Some incredibly nasty people. None of them remained single btw. They might have changed since, but somehow I doubt it.

Skafish might be obsessed, but he is still pointing out a social dynamic that won't go away. Regardless of the stereotype, which verges on the silly/comical at times, I don't think it's pushing it to say that a majority of men would be reluctant to express vulnerability with a partner.

I'm not surprised that none are single, and I don't think they changed either.

The stereotype does appear silly and comical sometimes, which is kind of part of my frustration - I just don't get how women are taking these Hells Angels, James Dean ripoffs seriously.

I always knew I'd fail miserably at being an actual criminal, I didn't have the background, the muscle, the skills or the killer instinct and I knew I'd be foolish to do that when I had another option. I didn't have the excuse of being born into it and not knowing any better. And I never wanted to be a pretender either, because I thought confidence is being yourself instead of trying to be something you aren't especially to appeal to others. Pretending to be a bad boy, pretending to be a street tough or a Satanist and love violence and blood and death and crime just seemed fake to me.

And the vulnerability, I mean I get why people don't like it, you're admitting weakness. But it seems silly to go around pretending that I don't have any weaknesses and that I have all the answers. Or the whole "cool" act, pretending you don't care about a girl that you really want. I do have preferences, I care about what I get. It seems really adolescent to pretend that I don't.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Oh here we go again with the ******* tattoos. Are you kidding me? And just because the "bad boys" that I know are mostly very good men, doesn't mean they can't be hardcore. Doesn't mean they haven't been hardcore. And yeah, they can be dangerous, if you fresia with them and the people they love. Do you know how many of those "bad boys" have come to my rescue? Do you know how many of those "bad boys" would have my back if I EVER needed them? Every single mother ******* one of them.

You judge people based on how they look. THAT is what is bullshit. I seriously doubt you actually know any of them.
But okay, let's switch this up a minute. You think I'm a *****, right? I know you don't like me, so it's not a stretch to ask that question. But here's what you don't know. I'm one of the most LOYAL friends anyone could have. I would do anything for the people I love and care about. I'd imagine you would too, right? But have you had to? I have....my "bad boy" friends have.

Body art doesn't make someone a "bad boy" whether it's a ******* rose or a ******* skull. Clothing doesn't make someone a "bad boy" whether it's a ******* power suit or motorcycle leathers. Stop ******* stereotyping a group of people when you don't have any clue what they are really ******* like. I know people who would appear to be "nice" guys, based on your misguided standards who are a shitload worse than what you mistakenly deem as "bad boys."

 

[ardour]

And the vulnerability, I mean I get why people don't like it, you're admitting weakness.  But it seems silly to go around pretending that I don't have any weaknesses and that I have all the answers.  Or the whole "cool" act, pretending you don't care about a girl that you really want.  I do have preferences, I care about what I get.  It seems really adolescent to pretend that I don't.

Although we might agree on the gist, you realize that by obsessively meditating on this you're re-enforcing a resentment filled mindset, one that no-doubt shows on your face and in your demeanour? You won't be able to tell if you're being rejected because of that, as opposed to not being "bad boy"/masculine enough.

At the risk of sounding 'above you', condescending, etc., I'm trying to get past this way of thinking and I think you should also.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I'm not surprised that none are single, and I don't think they changed either.

The stereotype does appear silly and comical sometimes, which is kind of part of my frustration - I just don't get how women are taking these Hells Angels, James Dean ripoffs seriously.  

I always knew I'd fail miserably at being an actual criminal, I didn't have the background, the muscle, the skills or the killer instinct and I knew I'd be foolish to do that when I had another option.  I didn't have the excuse of being born into it and not knowing any better.  And I never wanted to be a pretender either, because I thought confidence is being yourself instead of trying to be something you aren't especially to appeal to others.  Pretending to be a bad boy, pretending to be a street tough or a Satanist and love violence and blood and death and crime just seemed fake to me.

And the vulnerability, I mean I get why people don't like it, you're admitting weakness.  But it seems silly to go around pretending that I don't have any weaknesses and that I have all the answers.  Or the whole "cool" act, pretending you don't care about a girl that you really want.  I do have preferences, I care about what I get.  It seems really adolescent to pretend that I don't.

Although we might agree on the gist,  you realize that by obsessively meditating on this you're re-enforcing a resentment filled mindset, one that no-doubt shows on your face and in your demeanour? You won't be able to tell if you're being rejected because of that, as opposed to not being "bad boy"/masculine enough.

I'm trying to get past this and I think you should also.

Yeah.  Callie's post...I don't know what to say to it.  It didn't change my mind at all.  I'm sure she's loyal to her friends, lots of people are whether you are good or bad.  Loyalty is especially emphasized among gangster types too, so I don't know how that's supposed to change my mind.  And people look the way they do because they want to send a message.  I just don't see how we can't say there's a correlation when criminals, porn stars, and other sorts of rebellious types tend to look, talk, and act the same certain way.  

Sometimes I feel like I'm just uselessly raging against nature, like getting mad at gravity.  Maybe I should just get with the program, become a macho man, and problem solved, I'm sure I'd never want for a girlfriend again.  Or I could not be macho and just resign to dating someone in my "league".  Forget about being with someone I'm actually attracted to or interested in talking with, I'll just have to miss out on that and be with someone "just okay".  I wouldn't really care about it, so I could seem like a cool guy, and though it would be unfulfilling it would be pretty stress-free.  I won't be flying very high, but I won't have very far to fall.

If anything, I think I'd be rejected because I spent too much time arguing about this today and not enough time doing cool or even necessary things.  Spending my days raging about bad boys on the Internet isn't going to sound too interesting or impressive to anyone, I know that.  It probably shows in my demeanor big time.  I could try to just forget them, I do best on days when I am too busy to think about them.  I just don't know where to go from here though.  I'm tired of feeling emasculated by being the "nerd" that always gets shown up.  I can't be bad, but being good doesn't seem to work either.

---

At the risk of sounding 'above you', condescending, etc., I'm trying to get past this way of thinking and I think you should also.

No, you don't, it's fine. You're trying to relate, at least.  You're probably right.  I just wish I knew what else I could do. I'm probably just feeling extra cranky because it's that day again.

 

[Paraiyar]

Ska, do you think part of your problem could be that you aren't encountering people enough? I remember how isolating it could be when I was at home and unemployed.

 

[DarkSelene]

And people look the way they do because they want to send a message.  I just don't see how we can't say there's a correlation when criminals, porn stars, and other sorts of rebellious types tend to look, talk, and act the same certain way.  

Nope nope nope.

People don't necessarily look a certain way to pass a message. This is high school mentality.
They wear certain types of clothes, have different bodymods based on what they like/find appealing to the eye/have any meaning to them. I've grown up inside a group of people that had their full bodies covered in tattoos/piercings/subdermal implants and can safely say that they are the most peaceful, friendly and reasonable people I've ever met. Specially regarding the lack of prejudice that stems from those people, they learn from the mistakes of those that judge them by their appearance. The only "bad boy" I've met in my life was a dude that looked completely "nerdy", and he was also a hooligan.

You can find those types of bodymods/clothing unappealing, but do not make the mistake of judging people as good x bad because of your own short-sighted view.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Blame, excuses, stereotyping, labels.....that's all Ska ever seems to push out.

Here's a thought for you. Stop labeling people, stop worrying about other people. Start being a human being and realize that every **** person out there is also a human being with feelings, lives, vulnerabilities and people who love and care about them. It doesn't matter what clothes you wear, it doesn't matter if you have body art, it doesn't matter if you are a nerd or a doctor or a member of a motorcycle club. WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS. Try treating people like human beings regardless of whatever bullshit stereotypes you want to throw at them. Maybe then you'll see what you're doing.

 

[EveWasFramed]

You know, Ska (and I'm sure you realize it, as you've said it quite a few times in your posts) your pool of acceptable candidates for a significant other is pretty shallow. I'm not suggesting that you "settle" or date someone you really don't like. I'm just saying that you narrow your chances for finding someone substantially. I'm also not suggesting that you shouldn't have standards either - everyone does. What I'm saying, is that you've made the pool really tiny and maybe you're just unlucky enough that this small group of women are either not attracted/interested in you, or they like other types of men.
You've stated the kind of men you hate. Hate them all you like if you can't get past what you think they are. But at some point, you will look back and wonder why you wasted so much precious time worrying about what the "bad guys" had going on. Let's say just for a moment, that every single thing you've said is absolute truth. What now? That's not going to help you at all. And to act like you describe them isn't an option either. It would make you a faker.
So what comes next for you? You've been around here for now long now? Two or three years, with the exact same issues as when you came here? It's time to move on those things you talk about doing in your life. If you can't let go of your hatred, at least learn to recognize it and compartmentalize it.
Spend all that time you spend ranting and hating on something more worthwhile.

 

[ardour]

Workplaces might not be great environments to meet a potential girlfriend, but at least it gets you out of the house and in contact with a variety of people.

 

[Paraiyar]

Workplaces might not be a great environments to meet a potential girlfriend, but at least it gets you out of the house and in contact with a variety of people.

I just think a lack of a strong social network might be the real problem and not 'bad boys.'

 

[michael2]

TheSkaFish you sound alot like me.  Your upbringing, social experience, etc etc all very similar to what I have experienced which has led me to become the person I am today.

The problem is I feel men and women like us are rare, and thus its hard for us to find eachother.

It's just harder for us.  Women are attracted to masculinity, and bad boys have masculinity in abundance.  Their identity is all about projecting their masculinity all the time.  It's harder for guys who aren't as interested in that stuff.  I think it would be exhausting to be that way, because you'd always have to assert your dominance and defend your masculinity and "coolness".  You'd have to always be looking for trouble.  And I don't know what these guys do when they inevitably meet someone bigger, meaner, tougher, richer, etc. than them.  It seems like a never-ending game of one-upsmanship.      

It's also easier for them to find their way in the world.  For a job and hobbies, they just pick the macho ones, which are always socially acceptable - even doing illegal stuff is more acceptable and "manly" than being a "nerd".  They don't question themselves as much because they don't seem to want anything that complicated.  

I think guys like us have to be really careful about how we come across.  We have to remember that niceness isn't good enough, and to tone down the niceness, cuteness, and sweetness but at the same time without being a jerk because we're not good at that.  We have to remember to NOT be too agreeable or available to the women we like and NOT try to talk to them all the time, because we don't want to come off as a BFF, a pushover, or a doormat - BUT without being rude.  We have to make sure we are confident and assertive, even if we haven't had any success before so we don't know for sure what works.  We have to be interesting enough.  We have to act like we know what we're doing and where we're going.  We have to really make sure we have ourselves together (jobs, hobbies, etc.) and try not to reveal too many problems and insecurities to the girls we like.  We have to find a way to be ourselves, but without being Ned Flanders.  We can't come off as too prudish, and we have to show that we can deliver thrills.  It's a lot to keep straight.

Most importantly I would like to start off by saying yes, 'nice guys' do need to work on kissing too much butt etc etc.  But on the same token 'nice guys' need to understand they shouldnt try and swing the pendulum over to the opposite end of the spectrum and be the 'bad boy' and 'dont give a ****' or 'act aloof' etc etc.  It might be tempting to do this because many women find it attractive but its poison to a long term relationship.  Its all about balance and finding the middle ground where you become simply a respectable 'man'.

This is why the 'bad boy' stereotypes frustrates me - because it encourages countless 'nice guys' to change who they are for the worse instead of finding balance.  'Bad boys' are NEVER asked to alter their personality because it attracts women.  Being over masculine usually leads to being a jerk, but its socially acceptable because these guys are put on a pedestal in movies, TV, etc, or they use their abuse of masculinity (bullying) to climb the corporate or political ladder, fooling some women into thinking successful men have to act that way.

Now if a woman were to be overly feminine (too clingy, needy, etc) she is told to adjust her personality to be more balanced.  But again, the 'bad boy' is NEVER asked to alter his personality, and men are told to imitate him.  I've had acquaintances who were ' bad boys'.  They enforced their alpha male masculinity that women go crazy over by ALWAYS putting themselves first and belittling their own friends.  Sure not all 'bad boys' are like that.  But if you believe not all bad boys are like that, then you must believe not all 'nice guys' are spineless pushovers either.

I feel most 'nice guys' are talented, have an underappreciated degree of masculinity, as well as confident in their personal abilities,  though they may at times feel their abilities are nothing to be confident about because their talents are not socially acceptable/praised.  They simply dont have confidence in dealing with women because they lack experience with them.  They lack experience with women because they had trouble attracting them because they dont wear their masculinity on their sleeve, like the 'bad boys'.

I'm sure I'll probably get roasted for this, but some of the comments I'm reading give the impression that some people are **** near OBSESSED with this "bad guy" stereotype.
To fault someone simply because they are more masculine than you are?? There's NOTHING wrong with men who don't share your (anyone) characteristics. And to suggest that females like men who act badly??
They are in the minority in my opinion. Not many people, male or female, want to be with someone who breaks the law, etc.
Jesus Christ...maybe if people stopped focusing so much of their energy on who they AREN'T and stopped obsessing over these stereotypes, they'd have more time and energy to focus on THEMSELVES.
Yes, there are certainly men out there who fit that stereotype, but honeysuckle. Move the hell on.

The 'obsession' with the bad boy stereotype?  Look at youtube, theres dozens of women with videos telling men how to act like a 'bad boy' if they want to attract them.  Not only that, they love thrashing 'nice guys'.  Honestly, it made me not like women as much as I use to.  Because in these videos they come off as narcissistic, cold, selfish, and quite frankly heartless.

I have/had five sisters.  ALL of them are/were primarily attracted to 'bad boys'.  One of my sisters almost makes 6 figures and is a 9.  Yet she actually considered a 'bad boy' who just finished a 15 year jail sentence but only turned him down when she found out he was playing someone else at the same time.

If a 'bad boy' can be attractive to my sister,  why would I not be interested in this social dynamic?

Plenty of my friends who have girlfriends are decent guys. Just forget this whole stupid dichotomy and start doing more for yourself.

I feel its better to understand this then 'move on' rather then simply forgetting about it.  The world in general is very screwed up.  You can either turn a blind eye to all the garbage, or you can see the garbage, understand how if affects you and what you want from life, and then move on.