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NoxApex(N/A)

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Honestly any girl would be lucky to have ya! You’re a deep thinker, like my little Ardour… most women do like men that are average my sisters friends fight over who gets to sleep with the local plumber… so idk!!

I don't beat myself up over it is the thing. No point in making mountains out of mole hills and crying over spilled milk. It just is what it is and I handle it. 🤷‍♂️🤔☝️😳 Maybe that's why? Because I just handle it? 🤷‍♂️😂

I'm just not going to lie to myself about it either, is the thing. It's an acceptance that I'm just comfortable with.
 

NoxApex(N/A)

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Princess plumbers are bloody loaded nowadays, easily making upwards of 80K a year an' it's all cash in hand innit 💥

I still wouldn't do it. 😂
It's a pain in the ass. That's probably the main reason it's so expensive.
Although, Moonstruck comes to mind:
"It costs money. It costs money because it saves money." 🙄😂
 

TheSkaFish

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Issue is you’re meant to be in my opinion. Its a mans world, the men of the past built everything, it was a good thing.

However, just as women of today have been taught to hate their previous role of serving their husband and motherhood, men are being taught to hate their role of providing and protecting… thus.. the average man is depressed along with various 40+ women who woke up and realised they long for a child and cant have any.

Realtionships are pointless, everything you do with your partner you could be doing while single, theres no family unit, no balance.

Women can adapt to this better than men because men arent physically desirable (to 70% of women). The things that attract 70% of women have been claimed to be height, strength, and in various women Caucasian men as they represent success around certain areas of the world (all things men cannot change) Just as youth and beauty attract men as it represents fertility. So obviously somewhere instinctually maybe? a vast majority of us want our gender roles back.

Not to pile on you or anything, but I'm going to have to disagree.

The men of the past may have built a lot, but don't forget, they destroyed a lot too. In many ways, you could say we're still cleaning up their messes, and having to backtrack to do this, slows down the pace that we could be moving forward.

I don't think men are meant to be protectors or providers, and I also don't think women were meant to be sex dolls or baby-making machines. I don't think we're meant to be anything. That's not to say that I think we're meant to be nothing - I mean that I always thought we were free to be however we wanted to be. I always thought that was the point of the modern, technological world - that it gave us more freedom to be any way we wanted, as long as we weren't hurting anyone. In the bad old days, before modern technology, for most people life was survival - the purpose of life was predetermined for you, dictated to you. But I thought science, technology, civilization/morality/the rule of law, learning from history, and more compassionate, understanding, modern ways of thinking set us free. I thought people had to be hard when the world was harder, but now it wasn't because we evolved out of it, and now we could do what we wanted with our lives. I thought our lives were open-ended, and our roles were for us to decide instead of being predetermined. I don't think there is, or necessarily has to be, any such thing as "human nature". I think that's the thing about being sentient - you're free to decide what your nature is, yourself.

Someone might say that I'm childish, and therefore at fault and deserving to be mocked, for still wanting to collect and play with the toys of my youth, at my age.
But I say that because we live in the modern, technological, and forward-minded world, I'm free to do that if I want, because who am I hurting?
Sure, in the past, that wouldn't have been feasible when you had to sleep with one eye open in case your neighbor would try to slit your throat in the middle of the night and steal your shiny rocks.
But I say that due to the modern world, I'm free in ways that ancient people could never imagine.
And that's the point of why we built the modern world - to live a more comfortable, luxurious, and happier life where we could choose what to make our lives about instead of being forced to make our lives about mere survival.

I think the problem is, instinct runs deep, and technology improves and tames the world faster than our instincts change to match living in a safer, softer world. Instinctively we still want the same things we wanted since the dawn of our species, even though for most people, we aren't living in the kind of world anymore, that our instincts evolved for.

Growing up I didn't see myself as a "protector/provider". I didn't even know about that stuff at all. I saw myself as just a person, like any other. I liked the interests I liked naturally, acted the way I acted naturally, thought, felt, and saw things the way I thought, felt, and saw things naturally. I thought I could just be, just live. I didn't know I was supposed to live in any certain way. I didn't know I was supposed to fit myself in to a fixed role, and even if I had, I probably would have felt that I wasn't dealt the genetic cards to play it anyway. I guess that influenced my thinking - I always knew I couldn't fit into the jocks/"hot girls"/"popular" world, that seemed to be based on predetermination, being born with the right genetics to be that kind of person. It didn't make any sense to me, to try to fit myself in to a way of doing things where I'd always be on the bottom, playing by their rules I'd always lose, I'd always get nowhere. So I figured, maybe things don't have to be any particular way, maybe you can just make your life about what you want it to be about, maybe you can just be. Maybe I was mistaken. I don't know.

And anything that's based on genetics, where you have to just be born as the right kind of person otherwise you're inherently "lesser", just seems kinda Nazi to me, and again, growing up I was taught those were the bad guys. I don't see how that kind of thinking can ever be the side that's good and right. Growing up in America I always heard a lot about freedom and equality, so maybe it's my American-ness showing, but I always felt that the side that said that some people were inherently "better" than others, was the bad side, the wrong side - stuff like eugenics, slavery, or rigidly hierarchical societies like those in third world countries, were considered morally wrong, and that our society was more advanced and provided a better quality of life, because we grew out of doing those things.

Also I don't think relationships are pointless, outside of raising kids. I think that's kind of a utilitarian way of looking at it. I think relationships are a different dynamic - closeness, like friendship or family, but with its own twist. I think it all has a purpose, and it's all different experiences that make your life complete.

I guess I grew up with a very different way of seeing things. Sometimes I have to remind myself that not everyone sees things my way.
 
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TheSkaFish

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Oh Claudia and RandomGuy and Apex! I just dont know, I've complained many times on here that I grew up watching a man run his household the way I was taught a man should. Never crying, never talking about feelings, never asking my mother to pay a bill, completely protected her... died happily married to her, I have come to accept that this is the man of yesterday and I am stuck with the "man" or whatever of today... it's depressing. I want a man to make me feel safe, maybe it's unreasonable but if he cant I just dont know what the point is, cant be more honest than that. It's like finding out Santa isn't real finding out men aren't happy the way I need them to be.

PS - curiosity question:

If you don't mind sharing, how old was your dad? Or if you'd rather not say, what generation was he from?

The way you've described him, he sounds like he was from the WW2 generation, or even earlier.
I don't mean that in a bad way or anything either. I just didn't think there were people like that anymore.
 

CenotaphGirl

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Not to pile on you or anything, but I'm going to have to disagree.

The men of the past may have built a lot, but don't forget, they destroyed a lot too. In many ways, you could say we're still cleaning up their messes, and having to backtrack to do this, slows down the pace that we could be moving forward.

I don't think we're meant to be anything. That's not to say that I think we're meant to be nothing - I mean that I always thought we were free to be however we wanted to be. I always thought that was the point of the modern, technological world - that it gave us more freedom to be any way we wanted, as long as we weren't hurting anyone. In the bad old days, before modern technology, for most people life was survival - the purpose of life was predetermined for you, dictated to you. But I thought science, technology, learning from history, and more compassionate, understanding, modern ways of thinking set us free. I thought our lives were open-ended, and our roles were for us to decide instead of being predetermined. I don't think there is, or necessarily has to be, any such thing as "human nature". I think that's the thing about being sentient - you're free to decide what your nature is, yourself.

Growing up I didn't see myself as a "protector/provider". I didn't even know about that stuff at all. I saw myself as just a person, like any other. I liked the interests I liked naturally, acted the way I acted naturally, thought, felt, and saw things the way I thought, felt, and saw things naturally. I thought I could just be, just live. I didn't know I was supposed to live in any certain way. I didn't know I was supposed to fit myself in to a fixed role, and even if I had, I probably would have felt that I wasn't dealt the genetic cards to play it anyway. I guess that influenced my thinking - I always knew I couldn't fit into the jocks/"hot girls"/"popular" world, that seemed to be based on predetermination, being born with the right genetics to be that kind of person. It didn't make any sense to me, to try to fit myself in to a way of doing things where I'd always be on the bottom, playing by their rules I'd always lose, I'd always get nowhere. So I figured, maybe things don't have to be any particular way, maybe you can just make your life about what you want it to be about, maybe you can just be. Maybe I was mistaken. I don't know.

And anything that's based on genetics, where you have to just be born as the right kind of person otherwise you're inherently "lesser", just seems kinda Nazi to me, and again, growing up I was taught those were the bad guys. I don't see how that kind of thinking can ever be the side that's good and right.

Also I don't think relationships are pointless, outside of raising kids. I think that's kind of a utilitarian way of looking at it. I think relationships are a different dynamic - closeness, like friendship or family, but with its own twist. I think it all has a purpose, and it's all different experiences that make your life complete.

I guess I grew up with a very different way of seeing things. Sometimes I have to remind myself that not everyone sees things my way.
Oh Ska Fishy how I love to read your well written statements, puts me to shame every time. Honestly, I was raised to be a certain way, dont eat until the man starts, don't raise your voice to him, even dont get with a man too close in age was a rule. If my mum gained too much weight, she wouldn't eat at all. Everyone I met told me its not supposed to be like that, and women are equal to men. Maybe some are, but I am not. Men proved that to me a long time ago. So now, what are weak girls like me to do if our protectors are weak? Rejoice? it's impossible not to feel a little bit... disappointed. But just as I dont want the "strong woman" role forced onto me, I wouldn't want the "provider/protector" role forced onto men that couldn't make the cut.

And he died 57 🥺
 

Rohini

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To the OP and original point here.. sounds like a defeatist-merp attitude to me.

You can do a lot. You can always do something. Wallow in your misery, or pull yourself out.

Sink or swim.

A lot more masculine to find a solution rather than piss and moan about it 24/7

My 2 cents worth .. which probably isn't worth much. (y)
 

TheSkaFish

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honestly why dont average men wanna go abroad? I saw on YouTube that average men can date 126 women in 3 years abroad.

Because:

- It's not the quantity that matters, but the quality - the genuine connection. Maybe it's just me but I only want one genuine connection, I don't care about/don't want to be a player. I don't want to date 100 women. Honestly I'd prefer to date just one that I like a lot as a person, and be done with it, and get on to living.

- It also seems like sex tourism/exploitation in a way. And that's not only wrong but also not normal, so that makes me lesser as well. It's like, what does that say about me? That I'm such a loser, so inferior, that I can't date like a normal person in my own country, and have to resort to exploitation, like some kind of predator? That would make me so angry, to be that kind of person.

It's similar to why I would never, ever hire someone - because that would confirm beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am a loser, forever. I would hate myself, and never be able to recover. I couldn't live with that.

Some would probably say I have too much pride, for too little strength and status.
But I hate, hate, HATE accepting insults and humiliation. It's deeply important to me to refuse to "accept" an inferior status and lifestyle, that life has been trying to push on me all my life.

Anything less than the normal experience = hard "don't want", from me.


PS - Apologies if this comes off as mean/snappy - it's just my state of mind.
 
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CenotaphGirl

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Because:

- It's not the quantity that matters, but the quality - the genuine connection. Maybe it's just me but I only want one genuine connection, I don't care about/don't want to be a player. I don't want to date 100 women. Honestly I'd prefer to date just one that I like a lot as a person, and be done with it, and get on to living.

- It also seems like sex tourism/exploitation in a way. And that's not only wrong but also not normal, so that makes me lesser as well. It's like, what does that say about me? That I'm such a loser, so inferior, that I can't date like a normal person in my own country, and have to resort to exploitation, like some kind of predator? That would make me so angry, to be that kind of person.

It's similar to why I would never, ever hire someone - because that would confirm beyond any shadow of a doubt that I am a loser, forever. I would hate myself, and never be able to recover. I couldn't live with that.

Some would probably say I have too much pride, for too little strength and status.
But I hate, hate, HATE accepting insults and humiliation. It's deeply important to me to refuse to "accept" an inferior status and lifestyle, that life has been trying to push on me all my life.

Anything less than the normal experience = hard "don't want", from me.


PS - Apologies if this comes off as mean/snappy - it's just my state of mind.
Skafishyyyy you're never snappy, but I hope you're okayyy ✨
 

TheSkaFish

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Skafishyyyy you're never snappy, but I hope you're okayyy ✨

Thanks - eh, I don't know if I would say I am "okay". More like, I'm managing. I'm hanging on.

I just wanted to reassure you that your posts/comments don't make me angry - it's my situation that does. That's all.
 

randomguy

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The way you've described him, he sounds like he was from the WW2 generation, or even earlier.
I don't mean that in a bad way or anything either. I just didn't think there were people like that anymore.
We still have loads of men like that in Britain especially among the aristocracy and upper middle classes. They use words like tradition and duty a lot and cling to conservative views of men as breadwinners and women as homemakers,
 

CenotaphGirl

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We still have loads of men like that in Britain especially among the aristocracy and upper middle classes. They use words like tradition and duty a lot and cling to conservative views of men as breadwinners and women as homemakers,
Deffo a class thing, working class could never afford the lifestyle in this expensive country… frankly..
 

Claudia1794

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We still have loads of men like that in Britain especially among the aristocracy and upper middle classes. They use words like tradition and duty a lot and cling to conservative views of men as breadwinners and women as homemakers,
In the South as well. My son thinks this way but I think its because of his grandparents and great grands. Its what he has seen through them and their relationships. Its influenced his idea of relationships far more than his own parents. I think we, his parents, are what he wants most to avoid.
 

randomguy

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In the South as well. My son thinks this way but I think its because of his grandparents and great grands. Its what he has seen through them and their relationships. Its influenced his idea of relationships far more than his own parents. I think we, his parents, are what he wants most to avoid.
Exactly the same as my daughter, my parents had a very ' traditional ' relationship and that's been a far bigger influence on her than me and her mum's bohemian, rock n' roll bullshit.
 

Claudia1794

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Exactly the same as my daughter, my parents had a very ' traditional ' relationship and that's been a far bigger influence on her than me and her mum's bohemian, rock n' roll bullshit.
I will say this and stop...my son actually asked me how two completely chaotic people managed to end up together and have a kid. Birds of a feather was all I could come up with at the time. Besides, the was the order in our chaos. He has sorta taken that and ran with it.
 

Rohini

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I wished my mother had been a homemaker, when my parents were together. Nowadays lots of women are sort of pre-progammed to think that being a house-wife somehow makes them "less-than". I have heard this rhetoric from many before..

When the child is all grown up - if they had a mother who did stay home, and was there for them morning, noon and night.. there when they arrive home after school, cooking meals for them and helping them with whatever it is they need help with, the child would be a hell of a lot more grateful for actually having a mother there to do what her real job is - rather than a career woman for a mother.

I'm not saying a woman can't have a career and do what she wants.. that's on her - and in today's world, ofc I'm not that daft to where I don't understand that they have made it impossible with the over-inflated cost of living for people to live under a one-breadwinner household - but I'm just speaking strictly from the child's perspective here - child would express more gratitude for having all the access to the mother that child needed in their adolescence if she were a home-maker..

my 2 cents..
 

Claudia1794

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I wished my mother had been a homemaker, when my parents were together. Nowadays lots of women are sort of pre-progammed to think that being a house-wife somehow makes them "less-than". I have heard this rhetoric from many before..

When the child is all grown up - if they had a mother who did stay home, and was there for them morning, noon and night.. there when they arrive home after school, cooking meals for them and helping them with whatever it is they need help with, the child would be a hell of a lot more grateful for actually having a mother there to do what her real job is - rather than a career woman for a mother.

I'm not saying a woman can't have a career and do what she wants.. that's on her - and in today's world, ofc I'm not that daft to where I don't understand that they have made it impossible with the over-inflated cost of living for people to live under a one-breadwinner household - but I'm just speaking strictly from the child's perspective here - child would express more gratitude for having all the access to the mother that child needed in their adolescence if she were a home-maker..

my 2 cents..
One would think but it really depends on the child. I think we always tend to want the things we don't have and not truly appreciate the things we do. There are some that accept things for what they are. My sister and I have both always been the parent to always be there for everything for our sons. My son is an absolute sweetheart, kind, helpful, rule follower, good looking and really artistic/creative. My nephew, 14 months younger has been a terror since he was 4. Athletic, smart, goodlooking, fearless, rule breaker, eager to learn and try anything. My son did his morning exercises, did his chores and played on his computer. My nephew threw a temper tantrum and was destroying other peoples property. He was arrested this morning and put in juvie for the second time. He was mad because his 2020 Camaro was taken from him. My sister is constantly questioning every decision she has made since his birth and should she have continued to work is always one of them. Sorry, I tend to over share and ramble.
 
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I still like the idea of Little House on the Praire. Everybody was busy. The free time they had was cherrished and spent together. Since very few choices were available. People paired up due to needs. A strong, handy, hard working man was king. A hardworking, loving, stable woman was queen. All the other BS of looks, buying the correct gifts, etc, etc, etc just didn't matter. A home made gift at Christmas was wonderful, useful, and treated like gold.

iu


I'd go work my ass off at the saw mill while my extremely loyal wife was taking care of the house and the kids. I like this idea. I think this is what Ceno wants. Gender roles were clearly defined. There was no confussion about what to do. Then when someone got sick everybody joined in to help out.

Shit, I've been confused about what and how I'm supposed to act like as long as I can remember. Maybe that's why I have such an open mind now. I still don't really know what I'm supposed to do. I want to do the right thing, be nice, be supportive. But, then I have to realize I look like a whimp for doing that. I'm supposed to be tough and rugged. But, not abusive even though I've notice that many women get a sense of protection from that. I was told I didn't care enough about the other person because I didn't have a tantrum when they flirted with another guy. Sure I wanted to go kick the guy's ass. But, then I would have been called out for being violent. So, was I supposed to just put on a show, yell, and say a few verbal insults? I didn't see a point to doint that.

It all kinds of reminds me of the white collar guys that play bad ass dress up on the weekends. They pull up to the bars on a motorcycle they don't know how to repair and didn't build themselves looking like a motorcycle gang member. The women flock to them. Then during the week they wear ties. I guess everything is a facade now. I guess that's why appearances really do mean everything.
 

NoxApex(N/A)

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To the OP and original point here.. sounds like a defeatist-merp attitude to me.

You can do a lot. You can always do something. Wallow in your misery, or pull yourself out.

Sink or swim.

A lot more masculine to find a solution rather than piss and moan about it 24/7

My 2 cents worth .. which probably isn't worth much. (y)


Well said.
And as for the value of this and 2 cents, I mean:

tu-3s_top_gal.jpg


☝️🧐 According to this, 50 Cents means as far out of tune as possible. :unsure:
2 Cents is quite valuable. Plus, they're awesome at violins. 😂(y)
 

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