If your your an average guy, things suck, and theres nothing you can do

[sub5male]

Make all the excuses you want. You are perpetuating your own misfortune. You and several other men who talk the same. Imagine if potential partners ever read the stuff you wrote - you’re assuring staying single.

Not excuses at all, merely facts about how our society functions from the life experiences of a sub5 man. Your presupposition that if a man is not having success with women, it's due only to his attitude and mindset is a major cognative error. There are indeed men who lack the inherent physical characteristics to participate in the modern dating market but many are in denial of this because of the potential implications so they resort to gaslighting & victim blaming instead of calling out the ludicrous double standards which are so prevalent.

As far as women supposedly being turned off by a mans words, you should check out some of the catfishing videos on YT where a man poses as a male model and can literally say anything to women and no matter how vile, insulting or abusive he is they are still begging for his phone # and to hook up ASAP.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Well, I have another analogy....

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.....

 

[user 190701]

These sort of one off examples are the exception though and not the rule. Nothing even remotely imilar has certainly never happened to be in my over half century of life. The fact that it may be possible for a very tiny select few does not mean that every unattractive man has a chance. It would be like using playing the lottery as your retirement plan. I think when people speak about occurrences like this there is always a strong level of surviorship bias fallacy involved.

It is also important to remember that because women do have such high standards for men, the men they describe as being unattractive are more likely to be merely average or even slightly above average looking rather than being a true sub5 like yours truly.

Maybe you're the exception to the rule too. My point was simply that you can't say "all women." A good attitude and kindness go a lot further with me and than good looks. I don't know you, of course, but are these things you could work on?

 

[sub5male]

Maybe you're the exception to the rule too. My point was simply that you can't say "all women." A good attitude and kindness go a lot further with me and than good looks. I don't know you, of course, but are these things you could work on?

Thank you for your response & question Gabby. I wish I were only an exception but there are many average and below average men struggling mightily with modern dating. I think perhaps dating apps are a big reason why this scenario has gotten so dire in the past 5-10 years or so. Even just a lack of height alone is often sufficient to exclude interest from most women.

It's true that suggesting it's all women me be a misnomer but saying most women would be accurate in my opinion. For example, a recent study concluded that women rate 80% of men physically unattractive implying that women only consider the other top 20% as potential dating material. Even if it is closer to 60/40% or 50/50%, men like myself who are in the bottom percentage really have very little chance outside of perhaps a minor miracle.

I have been complimented on my personality, humor & kindness many times, often by women and sometimes even by the same women who friendzoned me after I asked them out. To me, that alone is a big indication that my below average physical appearance is the source of my struggles. When a women likes a man's personality but he does not meet her looks threshold, he is very often relegated to her friendzone while she pursues taller, better looking men for romantic relationships.

 

[TheRealCallie]

There are also many above average men (and women of every stupid "class") that struggle with modern dating. But hey, they can get laid, so they don't count.......Struggles only seem to be REAL when you are average or below average.

 

[Unsigned]

When a women likes a man's personality but he does not meet her looks threshold, he is very often relegated to her friendzone while she pursues taller, better looking men for romantic relationships.

I've never been "friends" with a female.
When you are in the "friend zone", do your female friends at least try to set you up with their friends?
Acknowledging your need for physicality?
Or do they simply ignore it?

 

[sub5male]

In my case that has never happened from a man or women whom I am friends with. Perhaps a factor may be that they acknowledge my lack of physical attractiveness so are wary of making the attempt? Irnonically I tend to get along better with women than men overall. Other than an occasional platonic hug the subject of physicality has never come up so I would say that it is ignored completely. Another indication that they likely do not regard me in the physical or romatic sense what so ever.

 

[Unsigned]

In my case that has never happened from a man or women whom I am friends with. Perhaps a factor may be that they acknowledge my lack of physical attractiveness so are wary of making the attempt? Irnonically I tend to get along better with women than men overall. Other than an occasional platonic hug the subject of physicality has never come up so I would say that it is ignored completely. Another indication that they likely do not regard me in the physical or romatic sense what so ever.

I've never had a guy friend try to set me up, but honestly I would not expect that.
I am out for myself and I always figure every other guy is the same.

I've only ever had two people try to set me up.

1) When I was 27 my sister tried to set me up with a coworker. The woman was 34 and had a 9 y/o daughter! And her ex husband was a cop who was "abusive to her"!!! And worst of all, she did this by inviting the two of them to an Easter Sunday dinner at her house and surprising me with it. Had she asked me of course I would have told her that I have NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in an older woman or a single mother. It was beyond idiotic. And the worst part was that she had a 21 y/o secretary working in her office at the time. If she wanted to set me up, she should have picked the young one.

2) When I was 30 my cousin tried to set me up with her friend. a 31 y/o "hippie chick" who liked hanging out in Greenwich Village. No thanks.

I believe when females set up a male relative/friend, they are doing it ONLY for the female friend. They are not thinking about what we may want/need. In the case of (1), I can only imagine my sister thinking "Oh...my friend is having a rough time of things, and my brother is a nice guy, so I'll try to set her up with him". They do it for them, not us.

 

[Abstamyous]

If my male friends spoke this way around me every time they spoke about dating, I'd think my female friends could do better. Fortunately, real life isn't as one sided.

 

[Unsigned]

If my male friends spoke this way around me every time they spoke about dating, I'd think my female friends could do better. Fortunately, real life isn't as one sided.

It's called honesty.
Yes, sometimes it is hard to hear, but I ALWAYS prefer it.

 

[sub5male]

If my male friends spoke this way around me every time they spoke about dating, I'd think my female friends could do better. Fortunately, real life isn't as one sided.

Real life is one sided for most men who are physically unattractive though-it's just not a comfortable truth for people so they tend to deny, ignore or attack in order to retain their worldview that there is someone for everyone and failing is always due to not trying hard enough or a personality defect.

 

[sub5male]

I've never had a guy friend try to set me up, but honestly I would not expect that.
I am out for myself and I always figure every other guy is the same.

I've only ever had two people try to set me up.

1) When I was 27 my sister tried to set me up with a coworker. The woman was 34 and had a 9 y/o daughter! And her ex husband was a cop who was "abusive to her"!!! And worst of all, she did this by inviting the two of them to an Easter Sunday dinner at her house and surprising me with it. Had she asked me of course I would have told her that I have NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in an older woman or a single mother. It was beyond idiotic. And the worst part was that she had a 21 y/o secretary working in her office at the time. If she wanted to set me up, she should have picked the young one.

2) When I was 30 my cousin tried to set me up with her friend. a 31 y/o "hippie chick" who liked hanging out in Greenwich Village. No thanks.

I believe when females set up a male relative/friend, they are doing it ONLY for the female friend. They are not thinking about what we may want/need. In the case of (1), I can only imagine my sister thinking "Oh...my friend is having a rough time of things, and my brother is a nice guy, so I'll try to set her up with him". They do it for them, not us.

Could very well be-I have never thought of it that way since as I stated it has not been a factor at all in my life on any level.

 

[ardour]

Actually, you oddly do have accountability. You are fully ready to accept your part in it, but you do post a lot of excuses. It doesn't matter how old you are, if you want to change, do it, work hard, be disciplined and make it happen. Regardless of what you are trying to accomplish, it CAN be done. Changes are rarely drastic, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying and BELIEVE that you can do it. Because if you really want to, you can.

See, that's the thing with "training" anyone in virtually anything. Each person has a different opinion of what a "man" should be. Take my ex for example. Before he started actually being a "father" to ONE of my children, my kid was a respectful, polite boy who was responsible and hard working. NOW, however, the more he hangs out with his father, the more disrespectful he is, the more irresponsible he is. But, my ex is teaching him how to be a "man"....what a "man" should be in HIS eyes. The kind of man HE is. That's not a good thing.
Also, you can only blame your upbringing for so long. At some point, you have to take responsibility for what you are taught, for what you learn. There are plenty of "men" out there who didn't have a father or had a crappy father.
ETA....the reverse is also true. There are plenty of men out there who had the father and were taught all the right things, but they are donkeys. People, regardless of age, learn what they want they learn, not what they should learn.

A man can't replicate his youth when relationships and important milestones are meant to happen. That's just an objective reality of aging and having missed out.

 

[user 139760]

This thread's like the Energizer Bunny. It keeps going and going and going and going and...

 

[ardour]

I've never had a guy friend try to set me up, but honestly I would not expect that.
I am out for myself and I always figure every other guy is the same.

I've only ever had two people try to set me up.

1) When I was 27 my sister tried to set me up with a coworker. The woman was 34 and had a 9 y/o daughter! And her ex husband was a cop who was "abusive to her"!!! And worst of all, she did this by inviting the two of them to an Easter Sunday dinner at her house and surprising me with it. Had she asked me of course I would have told her that I have NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in an older woman or a single mother. It was beyond idiotic. And the worst part was that she had a 21 y/o secretary working in her office at the time. If she wanted to set me up, she should have picked the young one.

2) When I was 30 my cousin tried to set me up with her friend. a 31 y/o "hippie chick" who liked hanging out in Greenwich Village. No thanks.

I believe when females set up a male relative/friend, they are doing it ONLY for the female friend. They are not thinking about what we may want/need. In the case of (1), I can only imagine my sister thinking "Oh...my friend is having a rough time of things, and my brother is a nice guy, so I'll try to set her up with him". They do it for them, not us.

I've noticed this, and male friends do this too. Set their bros up someone when the benefit is clearly to another party.

A friend of mine - his best friend from school - tried to set him up with with his mid 50s cousin (he was only 40 at the time) pretty much ensuring he would remain childless forever if that worked out. Thankfully the woman wasn't interested.

 

[sub5male]

This thread's like the Energizer Bunny. It keeps going and going and going and going and...

It is such a major issue for so many men and not a comfortable one to discuss for those without direct personal experience of it.

 

[Unsigned]

This thread's like the Energizer Bunny. It keeps going and going and going and going and...

I think the thread is like a microcosm of current Western society.
It keeps going because the problem keeps getting worse.

 

[okidoke]

It is such a major issue for so many men and not a comfortable one to discuss for those without direct personal experience of it.

If such men rate themselves say a 5 or less on the attractiveness scale, are they seeking women of the same rate, or trying for higher? I bet there are heaps of lonely women who feel the same as such men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

If such men rate themselves say a 5 or less on the attractiveness scale, are they seeking women of the same rate, or trying for higher? I bet there are heaps of lonely women who feel the same as such men.

Nonsense. I hear women, regardless of age, looks height or anything else you can think of can get laid and get a relationship any time they want. Because it's just so logical, isn't it?


Also, if you have no experience, I really don't understand why you continue to listen to those who also have no experience instead of the people that do. It's all just excuses and blame on others. Don't like the road you're on? Here's a thought, get off it....

 

[sub5male]

If such men rate themselves say a 5 or less on the attractiveness scale, are they seeking women of the same rate, or trying for higher? I bet there are heaps of lonely women who feel the same as such men.

I whole heartedly agree-having unrealistic expectations is not going to serve anyone. Many below average men would be very happy with a women on their own looks level but it is so often the women who are unwilling to "settle". As an example, check out the countless YT video's of obese women claiming they are a "10" and demanding men over 6 feet tall who are in good physical shape and have a full head of hair. There are of course also some men with a similar attitude but the majority of men are not so unrealistic. Personally I would be thrilled with a women on my looks level with a similar level of fitness but regardless of their facial attractiveness, women with outstanding bodies have many far taller & more attractive men than I am as options.